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Author Topic: Dealing with overachieving, workaholic grad students? Help!!!  (Read 14407 times)
totoro
Overachieving Troll and
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« Reply #60 on: March 17, 2011, 04:11:18 PM »

What matters is productivity, which in the social sciences is measured by grants funded and/or peer-reviewed journal articles. Period. Full stop.

And while I will gladly concede your point about diminishing returns with regard to productivity, I've yet to meet that special genius (either grad student or TT faculty member) who really is so efficient that he or she produces the same output in 30 hours that poor schleps like me produce in 60.

No, numbers aren't the only thing that counts. Quality of ideas does too. So I'm sure there are people who are twice as productive as you, but they probably do work more than 30 hours a week as well...
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imawakenow
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« Reply #61 on: March 17, 2011, 04:25:46 PM »

What matters is productivity, which in the social sciences is measured by grants funded and/or peer-reviewed journal articles. Period. Full stop.

And while I will gladly concede your point about diminishing returns with regard to productivity, I've yet to meet that special genius (either grad student or TT faculty member) who really is so efficient that he or she produces the same output in 30 hours that poor schleps like me produce in 60.

No, numbers aren't the only thing that counts. Quality of ideas does too. So I'm sure there are people who are twice as productive as you, but they probably do work more than 30 hours a week as well...

Actually, I never said that a simple publication count is the same thing as productivity, although I can see how you would interpret my comment that way.

As far as grants go, though, what metric would you propose besides what gets funded?
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dr_prephd
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« Reply #62 on: March 17, 2011, 06:56:49 PM »

I really really hope you're not my student.

The feeling is mutual, I'm sure. Party on, Wayne.

All I'm saying is that more hours worked =/= better work. I just can't be convinced otherwise. I've worked with enough people who think that arriving at work first and leaving last will help them succeed to know that it doesn't always work out that way.

OP, I suggest you have a conversation about work hours and expectations with your advisor and go from there. Clearly, fields, universities, departments, and advisors will all vary in their norms and expectations. My advisor couldn't care less how many hours I spent in Location X working on  Project B as long as it all gets done well, and by deadline.
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Prephd, in all that black, you are like the anti-pink-me.

Freewill is a beeyaaatch
gpduw
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« Reply #63 on: March 17, 2011, 09:09:38 PM »

Are the other graduate students more productive than you as far as the generation and building upon of quality data?  If they're not then you shouldn't feel bad.  Also, how is overachieving a bad thing?  Complaining about overachievers has always seemed to me to be a remedy for those who feel guilty for their laziness and lack of motivation.  It is not a dishonorable thing to want to achieve your absolute fullest potential.
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corvus_caurinus
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« Reply #64 on: March 17, 2011, 09:55:39 PM »

As I see it, complaining about over-achievers in academia is like complaining that your opponents on the ball court  practice too much. How the hell else are you going to get that three point percentage dialed in? The NBA is full of overachievers with a serious work ethic. If you can make it on raw talent, good on you, but folks who can do so come along once a generation.

R1 academia is the same way. If you don't think it's a tournament system, you haven't been around long enough.
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grasshopper
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Grade Despot


« Reply #65 on: March 18, 2011, 07:37:13 AM »

They work their tails off to meet his deadlines (when he clearly doesn't work as hard to meet our deadlines...but they don't call him out on it...)
This is the dumbest part of your post, making it hard to believe you've held down a real job, or exceed anyone in maturity.

Good luck with that!

Oh, yeah. There's a sense of superiority throughout all of this. Anything you can do, I can do better. I can do anything better than you.

In my experience, though, people who cop that kind of attitude are usually not as smart as they think they are. And their colleagues, not quite as stupid.
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aprilmay
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« Reply #66 on: March 18, 2011, 09:38:20 AM »

All I'm saying is that more hours worked =/= better work. I just can't be convinced otherwise.

prephd, I don't disagree with that. More work alone is not the key.
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merinoblue
Zep-loving party girl and
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« Reply #67 on: March 18, 2011, 11:58:17 AM »

All I'm saying is that more hours worked =/= better work. I just can't be convinced otherwise.

prephd, I don't disagree with that. More work alone is not the key.

No...more fun is the key!

-mb, who had fun during the MA but definitely not the PhD
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Sometimes I can start a party; sometimes I can't.
bread_pirate_naan
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softwears


« Reply #68 on: March 18, 2011, 04:15:56 PM »

They work their tails off to meet his deadlines (when he clearly doesn't work as hard to meet our deadlines...but they don't call him out on it...)
This is the dumbest part of your post, making it hard to believe you've held down a real job, or exceed anyone in maturity.

Good luck with that!

Oh, yeah. There's a sense of superiority throughout all of this. Anything you can do, I can do better. I can do anything better than you.

In my experience, though, people who cop that kind of attitude are usually not as smart as they think they are. And their colleagues, not quite as stupid.

I toe-tah-lay want to see a first or second year anything call out the tippy top boss for not meeting deadlines.  I also want to see that first or second year cry when the deadline not getting met is to file paperwork for their funding, travel, reading a manuscript for some minor publication, etc.

What I would really like to tear into is the paragraph that suggests talking about work is boring and that consumption of alcohol is a measure of how fun people are.  That's a sad, unscholarly, drunken world to live in.  Well, at least that's how it comes across.

***

Peeps starting new programs, FYI:  There are people who brag about never talking socially about work with their colleagues (first years, of late), and there are people who complain about colleagues who never want to discuss research or ideas, but are always on with the department gossip (people who win dept awards, of late).  Don't say a word until you figure which of these groups are doing well in your program, and seek a happy medium.  Grapevine and research talk are worthwhile. 

Checking out is something to do if easily overwhelmed or too cool for school.  Tis better to have friends outside of work if you need that level of decompression.  Disclaimer: In my experience, close friends care about what I do with my life.  Even the one who couldn't stand college long enough to finish.

As far as this time served/productivity equation goes, that's great bait! (for lab types)
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In unrelated news, I'd like a slice of cake.  --corny  /  It will go great. --jackalope
anthroang
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« Reply #69 on: March 18, 2011, 05:05:19 PM »

Also, how is overachieving a bad thing?  Complaining about overachievers has always seemed to me to be a remedy for those who feel guilty for their laziness and lack of motivation.  It is not a dishonorable thing to want to achieve your absolute fullest potential.

I tend to agree with this (as an "overachiever" myself), but also think it is bad for workers/society when extreme overachieving in one area of life is seen as the norm. It's a problem if sleeping 7 hours (ever, not even routinely), cooking a meal for yourself, or taking time to do laundry is seen as evidence of a lack of commitment to the field. I didn't go to a grad program like that (though I certainly worked more than 40 or 50 hrs a week), but my partner did.

The overworked one-upmanship I've seen in some academic institutions ("I'm working so hard I could barely dress myself today!") has struck me as annoying posturing that isn't  necessarily linked to productivity or quality.
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bread_pirate_naan
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softwears


« Reply #70 on: March 18, 2011, 06:14:08 PM »

The overworked one-upmanship I've seen in some academic institutions ("I'm working so hard I could barely dress myself today!") has struck me as annoying posturing that isn't  necessarily linked to productivity or quality.

Self-imposed slavery is the height of stupidity.  If only some understood what it looks like to those who aren't on that hamster wheel.

There are plenty of people with more sophisticated views of what constitutes achievement, and they tend to be more along the lines of a full and rich life which includes some sense of proportion and balance.

"Overachieving" has the connotation of a profound sense of inadequacy, or fear of failure behind it.  The OP seems to be using the term to deride those who are more ambitious and willing to sacrifice their quality of life for some achievement. 

That doesn't mean they're overachievers, or stupid, but it doesn't mean they aren't!
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In unrelated news, I'd like a slice of cake.  --corny  /  It will go great. --jackalope
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