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Author Topic: Re the New Atheists  (Read 69240 times)
angela
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« on: January 24, 2011, 10:59:50 AM »

http://chronicle.com/article/The-New-Athe-ists-Nar-row/126027/



the author sees that the western liberal contempt for religion is wrong. He wants to rescue religion, but his way of doing it is to tell us that religion is actually somehow liberal. At the same time, he wants to put down western religion and inform us that non western religions are somehow more liberal that western religions.  So he writes things that don’t make sense.

The author sees that a contempt for religion will lead to a contempt for the most religious, which are non western peoples.  So he wants to prevent that by defending animism, which is fine. But his defense is to tell us that they will stop being animists when they make more money (debatable) and that animism or any religion has nothing to do with morality (wrong). The morality argument is important for liberals to attack because that is the argument that western conservatives make about religion. So the author must defend the religion of non western peoples and at the same time absolve them of the horrible notion that their religion is connected to their morals.

The author’s position reveals the inherent dilemma liberals face when defending non western cultures. You end up defending the non liberal position and giving the advantage to conservatives in the west. This is the basic problem of liberals who defend Islam and at the same time put down what they call fundamentalist Christianity. If Muslims have the right to lead a life of conservative, “family”, values and that is good and proper, then why is it wrong for a Christian to do the same and oppose, for instance, gay marriage and abortion. This is not an idle question, but one that is becoming more important.

He says that religion has nothing to do with morality. This is an astounding statement and the author must know it is not true.  Religion is all about morality and right and wrong and what is fitting and decent or disgraceful and indecent.  People need a way to be able to figure out what someone will do and when someone is the same religion as you, you have guidelines and a framework.  This woman will not have premarital sex or make a blasphemous remark.  This person is unlikely to steal my cows.  Our Gods that we have in common says don’t do that.  This person has the same Gods as me and I can trust his conduct more than I can trust the conduct of an unbeliever. The author sees that religion is about consolation.  But Consolation is all about morality. About this person did something wrong and even though I can’t do anything about it, the Gods will punish him. Or if the society punishes him, it is doing God’s will. Animist cultures are full of people fearing spells and witchcraft, afraid of their neighbors doing wrong to them, attributing every ill to supernatural forces.  People use morality, that is religion, to put things right, to stop the evil spell.

Religion as Stephen Pinker said is about creating a community. People want to live among those who have the same values. In fact, it is difficult to do otherwise.

The author is so eager to put down the west he makes many nonsensical remarks.  He tells us that there is no tension between animism and science.  Of course there is great tension, much more so than there is between Judeo Christianity and science.  Science destroys animist cultures. There is nothing like a scientific demonstration or explanation of fire or clouds or water or a western rationalist explanation of sex roles (westerners who go to an African village and give the women aid or education or anything that frees them from men or family obligation are doing great harm) to drop the bottom out of an animist village.  Pretty soon, people are anxious and confused, not sure what is real or not anymore. They have lost their Gods.

Western fundamentalism has not been able to stop science from doing anything, even if it wanted to. Stopping people from murdering babies in the womb and using their cells is not stopping scientists, just as stopping experiments on prisoners is not stopping them. We could find out a lot if we could do brain experiments on prisoners, but we don’t do it.

In his zeal to do the proper liberal PC thing and show that he is part of the adversarial culture, the author comes close to saying that animism is superior. Let’s say that it is superior to other religions. Would we be better served if we all became animists? Would that increase or decrease liberalism, non racism, the assumption of equality, etc.?

Animists are not liberal. The author assumes that all non western cultures are liberal. They are not. They are racist, classist, sexist, and all the other “ists”. They had/have slavery, human sacrifice, caste systems, and all that other stuff we now regard as bad. In other words, they are human.  All the “bad” stuff is normal and natural.  The liberal stuff is invented and takes much more effort.
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fiona
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« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2011, 12:29:42 PM »

The OP's comment is TLTR (too long to read).

If you could give us some basics to respond to, that would help. Otherwise, this might better be posted on the site of the original piece, although it's probably too long for that, too.

The Fiona
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The Fiona or perhaps La Fiona
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The Right Reverend Fiona, PhD, Bishop of the Fora
al_wallace
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« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2011, 12:47:17 PM »

The article read like the Bible-full of contradictions, unsubstantiated claims, and lots of platitudes. Was that intentional?
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educator1
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« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2011, 02:50:32 PM »

http://chronicle.com/article/The-New-Athe-ists-Nar-row/126027/
 If Muslims have the right to lead a life of conservative, “family”, values and that is good and proper, then why is it wrong for a Christian to do the same and oppose, for instance, gay marriage and abortion.

It is perfectly all right for both Muslims and Christians to lead a life of conservative, family values (however they interpret this).
It is not perfectly all right for either religion to mis-read their sacred texts and conclude that they must kill or restrict the rights of others "in the name of god".
I have great respect for groups, like the Amish, who live their lives according to their beliefs without trying to ompose those beliefs on others.
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spyzowin
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« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2011, 04:02:39 PM »

http://chronicle.com/article/The-New-Athe-ists-Nar-row/126027/
 If Muslims have the right to lead a life of conservative, “family”, values and that is good and proper, then why is it wrong for a Christian to do the same and oppose, for instance, gay marriage and abortion.

It is perfectly all right for both Muslims and Christians to lead a life of conservative, family values (however they interpret this).
It is not perfectly all right for either religion to mis-read their sacred texts and conclude that they must kill or restrict the rights of others "in the name of god".
I have great respect for groups, like the Amish, who live their lives according to their beliefs without trying to ompose those beliefs on others.

That's just dumb.

EG if a group of white power nimrods want to live in their own separate community with no black people, provided that they didn't kill black people or spread their hatred to other communities that would inspire some sort of respect?

Foolish.
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farm_boy
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« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2011, 07:14:45 PM »

I don't know when I've read such mean-spirited responses to a fascinating article.  (The mean responses aren't here in this thread, but rather at the end of the article itself, though "angela" is most likely a Christian fundy troll).
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Screw you... You're not a troll. You're just posting pathetic jerkish, troll-wannabe, crap.  (mystictechgal, Member-Moderator)
al_wallace
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« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2011, 08:22:15 AM »

http://chronicle.com/article/The-New-Athe-ists-Nar-row/126027/
 If Muslims have the right to lead a life of conservative, “family”, values and that is good and proper, then why is it wrong for a Christian to do the same and oppose, for instance, gay marriage and abortion.

It is perfectly all right for both Muslims and Christians to lead a life of conservative, family values (however they interpret this).
It is not perfectly all right for either religion to mis-read their sacred texts and conclude that they must kill or restrict the rights of others "in the name of god".
I have great respect for groups, like the Amish, who live their lives according to their beliefs without trying to ompose those beliefs on others.

That's just dumb.

EG if a group of white power nimrods want to live in their own separate community with no black people, provided that they didn't kill black people or spread their hatred to other communities that would inspire some sort of respect?

Foolish.

I agree. The problem is everyone thinks that they are reading their sacred texts correctly and it is everyone else that is misreading it. There are too many truly stupid ideas out there that receive special status and protection from rational thought in the name of religion. For example, we have Catholic missionaries telling people in Sub-Sahara Africa not to use condoms even though the HIV infection prevalence may be as high as 80%. Should we respect that religious belief or should we do the "disrespectful" thing like point out that doing this is tantamount to genocide. Dumb beliefs and their practices should be purged or at least publicly questioned regardless of their source. When I say dumb, I mean ideas that promulgate social inequality, anti-intellectual thought (i.e. don't question), negatively influence people's health, or kill people. 
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educator1
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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2011, 12:20:59 PM »

Someone missed the last line of my post which stated "without trying to impose those beliefs on others". I agree that there some dumb religious ideas out there, but I am less concerned by groups, like the Amish, who show respect for others than I am about the examples in al-wallace's or angela's post, where there is no mutual respect.
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yellowtractor
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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2011, 12:26:29 PM »

Someone missed the last line of my post which stated "without trying to impose those beliefs on others". I agree that there some dumb religious ideas out there, but I am less concerned by groups, like the Amish, who show respect for others than I am about the examples in al-wallace's or angela's post, where there is no mutual respect.

You've mentioned the Amish twice, Educator1.  Although they tend to be non-evangelical in the usual sense of that word, they work very, very hard to "impose (or impress) their beliefs" on those within their communities.  How does this, in your view, get them off the hook?  I'm sure some ex-Amish who have been the object of shunning would disagree with you.

(Apologies for the apparent hijack, but I'm interested in precisely where Educator1 is drawing this line.)
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i think is good for every one only the think is that we will always scares about that.
educator1
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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2011, 12:44:03 PM »

I included the Amish as an example of a community with a strongly conservative set of beliefs that did not attempt to impose these beliefs on those outside their community. This was not an attempt to get into the judgement of the relative merits of various societies (something that I am ill equipped to do).
I used this to point out the problem with the argument in the quote by Angela. ("why is it wrong for a Christian to do the same and oppose, for example, gay marriage and abortion"). Unfortunately, for many "conservative Christians" this goes beyond their individual beliefs when they attempt to manipulate the power of the state to enforce their beliefs onto others.
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yellowtractor
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« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2011, 12:47:09 PM »

Unfortunately, for many "conservative Christians" this goes beyond their individual beliefs when they attempt to manipulate the power of the state to enforce their beliefs onto others.

OK.  This is indeed a major difference between, say, the Amish and most contemporary Evangelicals.

Again, apologies for the hijack.
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i think is good for every one only the think is that we will always scares about that.
larryc
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Eschew the hu.


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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2011, 12:54:04 PM »

I am of that generation of atheists who came to their unbelief independently and learned to mostly keep quiet about it so as not to frighten children or spook the horses. I have mixed feelings about these "new atheists." To me what is new is not so much the attacks on religion, which I can take or leave, but the refusal to accept second-class status for nonbelievers.
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spyzowin
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« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2011, 01:11:07 PM »

Someone missed the last line of my post which stated "without trying to impose those beliefs on others". I agree that there some dumb religious ideas out there, but I am less concerned by groups, like the Amish, who show respect for others than I am about the examples in al-wallace's or angela's post, where there is no mutual respect.

I didn't miss it at all.  You'll note that in my white power example I specifically noted that they would live separate without attempting to spread their hate to others.

Even if they live deep underground and are never heard of again, it still doesn't provoke anything even remotely close to respect.

Religion is stupid. People should stop making excuses for it.
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rear_view_mirror
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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2011, 01:29:30 PM »

An infant born in an Amish community will have beliefs imposed on him from outside. Religion often works as tyranny.
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fizmath
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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2011, 01:54:27 PM »

Someone missed the last line of my post which stated "without trying to impose those beliefs on others". I agree that there some dumb religious ideas out there, but I am less concerned by groups, like the Amish, who show respect for others than I am about the examples in al-wallace's or angela's post, where there is no mutual respect.

I didn't miss it at all.  You'll note that in my white power example I specifically noted that they would live separate without attempting to spread their hate to others.

Even if they live deep underground and are never heard of again, it still doesn't provoke anything even remotely close to respect.

Religion is stupid. People should stop making excuses for it.

And here you are spreading your hate for religion.  The world would be better off if people live separately and did not try to impose their views on others.   I don't want you anywhere near where I live.

The Amish are no more indoctrinated than anyone else.  Everyone gets indoctrinated in some belief system.
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