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[octoprof]

Notaprof, I'm glad your daughter is off to a good start.  I missed the original discussion back in November, but I do want to warn you (and her) that the biggest challenge for a student new to online learning is the temptation to put things off (because you don't have to face the teacher in class, and the materials will continue to be available on the CMS, waiting for you to access them), while you attend to face-to-face classes, a job, family demands, etc.  It's very easy to fall behind in an online class, and not always easy to catch up.  Please make sure your daughter knows that it's in her own best interests not to fall into this trap. 

This post on another thread got me to thinking. I'm wondering if any of you have brilliant ideas for combating procrastination by online students. In the traditional classroom, my stern look seems to get results, at least with students who actually come to class.

Here's what I'm trying this term in my cost accounting course (full online except for exams, upper level required course for accounting majors, a few other business majors taking it as an elective):

• Homework assignments (two a week) are online and have definite deadlines. Homework is graded more for completion than for perfection.
• Also, each module (12 in the semester) has a quiz that has a definite deadline. Students can take each quiz as many times as they want before the deadline.  The quizzes are ten questions coming randomly from 10 question sets so repeating the quiz means students will mostly see new questions on related topics with each subsequent attempt. Students can view the grading of each attempt and get feedback on wrong answers.
• Each module has one problem assignment. These are due about once per week (similar to quizzes in timing but due on a different day). These are large problems students have to complete (sometimes by hand and then scan, sometimes using Excel and printing to PDFs) and submit online. Deadlines are written in stone. Feedback is detailed and timely and these are graded for perfection, including every jot and tittle. The purpose is to see if they are getting more learning in than mindlessly doing the homework (which may or may not be right) and to give them the type of feedback they will get on an exam where accuracy really matters.
  

So, is my war against procrastination going to have any effect?

Do y'all have some better ideas? Other things I should try? Some of this you think I needn't do?

What has worked for you?

[littlefred]

Hi Octoprof, I don't teach in a math field, but here is my 2-cents.

Your deadlines are a good start, in my opinion one of the most important things in keeping an online class on-track. It sounds like you have a good basic start here from which to gain some knowledge of your students and your population.  I would say that will dictate future changes/tweaking of the course.

In my class quizzes are pulled from a pool of about 80 questions as well, but I don't know if I would let them have feedback on the quizzes and still be allowed to re-take them. But, again, I am not a math-based course, so it may make more sense in your course. (I teach anatomy, so it doesn't for me)

I would to say that there will be a certain percentage of students who will procrastinate, fall-behind, and beg for mercy. It doesn't seem to matter what I do. (This should be better in an upper-lever course though.) In my lower-level courses, it can be as much as 30% of the class! Upper lever, usually less than 5%

[glowdart]

I'd say to do all of it.  Deadlines, deadline enforcement and complete resistance to the whining.

I start them off with a short assignment which is worth enough points to hurt but not enough that they can't end the course with a B.  A few always neglect to complete it, and that zero either gets them to shape up or to drop. 

When I give feedback on major assignments, I will also include comments like, "I can see that you did not access the materials for this paper until the day it was due.  This paper was assigned six weeks ago." 

I still get a handful each semester who get angry that I won't let them "make up" the entire class during the last two weeks.  I don't think you'll ever fully get rid of them. 

(And I wish I had littlefred's students.) 

[littlefred]

Glowdart.... I have the same ones you do.

we instituted a new late policy and now the entire department does NOT accept any work late. They have to have a documented reason. It has helped tremendously with the ones who want to make up the whole class in the last 2 weeks of the term.

I also adjunct for a state school online and their polices, which I have to follow, are way tougher than any I would ever impose!

[glowdart]

See, now you're just making me even more jealous!  Institutional policies that have teeth and are adopted instead of discussed, ad nauseum, for millennia?  I'm swooning! 

(The upper level flake-out rate is more like 25% here.)   

[octoprof]

Hi Octoprof, I don't teach in a math field, but here is my 2-cents.

Your deadlines are a good start, in my opinion one of the most important things in keeping an online class on-track. It sounds like you have a good basic start here from which to gain some knowledge of your students and your population.  I would say that will dictate future changes/tweaking of the course.

In my class quizzes are pulled from a pool of about 80 questions as well, but I don't know if I would let them have feedback on the quizzes and still be allowed to re-take them. But, again, I am not a math-based course, so it may make more sense in your course. (I teach anatomy, so it doesn't for me)

I would to say that there will be a certain percentage of students who will procrastinate, fall-behind, and beg for mercy. It doesn't seem to matter what I do. (This should be better in an upper-lever course though.) In my lower-level courses, it can be as much as 30% of the class! Upper lever, usually less than 5%

I chose to make the quizzes as repeatable (up to the due date) to encourage learning (don't know if it actually does but our online course development gurus claim it does). Quizzes aren't a huge percentage of the grade, but the students conceivably could get 100% on every one (eventually) if they worked at it.  Amazingly, some will not.

Octo has no mercy. Deadlines is deadlines.There's no extra credit in life or in my class (yes, I do say this to my students).

Anyone else have more ideas or suggestions?

[dept_geek]

Octo has no mercy. Deadlines is deadlines.There's no extra credit in life or in my class (yes, I do say this to my students).

Anyone else have more ideas or suggestions?

My online classes have a bimodal grade distribution - As and Fs.  Only once did I have a nice bell curve, usually students do well or they flake out.

Deadlines is deadlines works wonderfully.  Lots of assignments, both formative and summative, also help. I have found that no matter when I make the deadline, some significant number of students don't start doing anything until 12 hours before. So the deadline is now when it suits me best. It is just before I come in to the office for a long more or less uninterrupted period of grading. I get (most) all my grading done before I go home.  Because my syllabus is very clear on the whole deadline thing, I get only a small handful of whine.

> because you don't have to face the teacher in class

This will be an issue when you get the students who have "keyboard bravery" - those who think they can say anything they want because they don't have to look you in the eye to say it. 

The other thing you want to watch for is the 3 hours before the deadline OMG I don't know what to do emails.  Start early creating email boundaries - only respond the first and last hour of your office hours, and once a day on the other days (and either Sat or Sun but not both) for example.  The expectation of an immediate response needs to be quelled, IMHO.

Stick to your guns.  Online classes are hard for everyone.

[proftowanda]

I'd say to do all of it.  Deadlines, deadline enforcement and complete resistance to the whining.

I start them off with a short assignment which is worth enough points to hurt but not enough that they can't end the course with a B.  A few always neglect to complete it, and that zero either gets them to shape up or to drop. 

When I give feedback on major assignments, I will also include comments like, "I can see that you did not access the materials for this paper until the day it was due.  This paper was assigned six weeks ago." 

I still get a handful each semester who get angry that I won't let them "make up" the entire class during the last two weeks.  I don't think you'll ever fully get rid of them. 

(And I wish I had littlefred's students.) 

Very similar to my course plan.  I have a fast early assignment (in part for my assessment of their abilities, with many transfers, returning students, etc.) for which few actually follow the instructions, so I come down hard on that from the start.  But also from the start, on the syllabus and pre-course communications and more, I make very clear statements that mine is not a self-paced course.  In bold face, underlined, etc.  I explain that the course is scheduled for group discussions throughout, on certain days, and that once everyone else is done with each discussion, we have moved on . . . and procrastinors are left in the dust.

Of course, despite these and many more steps and statements, I also still get the procrastinors, the whiners, and worse.  And yes, replying with resort to their user progress report on the CMS can have some impact on some students -- what? you're whining about the test, but you never accessed the test tips, the study terms, and half of the lectures, etc.? -- but not all.  I don't know why they're in the online courses, especially as they come with extra fees.  I see on these boards that it may be some financial aid scam.  Whatevuh: Not my problem as the instructor.  (My problem as a taxpayer, yes, and my problem when I'm on furloughs/pay cuts to pay for the scam, but that's for another thread ).

[infopri]

I would to say that there will be a certain percentage of students who will procrastinate, fall-behind, and beg for mercy. It doesn't seem to matter what I do. (This should be better in an upper-lever course though.)

Guess again.  I teach master's students, and what you describe is an ongoing problem.  I even had one student completely miss the only real-time activity--scheduled at a time he signed up for!--because he "never received the necessary information" (about the content of the activity).  In fact, I did post the information, but because he hadn't opened up a single learning module in more than six weeks, he didn't see it.  Somehow, this was my fault. 

I wish I could say this guy was unique, but alas, I can't.  My experience is very like proftowanda's:

And yes, replying with resort to their user progress report on the CMS can have some impact on some students -- what? you're whining about the test, but you never accessed the test tips, the study terms, and half of the lectures, etc.? -- but not all.

Mostly the response is surprise that I know (and sometimes denial of my observations--"I've accessed every lecture!"  Um, no you've accessed exactly two, and we're in week nine), promises to work hard and catch up, and then failure to follow through. 

I've taken to encouraging procrastinators to drop the course.  I send out emails just before the financial drop deadline, the academic drop deadline, and the withdraw deadline.  The students almost never take my suggestion, but at least then I'm covered when they come whining with pleas for more time on the assignments or unmerited Incompletes for the course.

Because these are master's students, I've relied on reminders and warnings (e.g., explanations why Paper X can't be done at the last minute and the kinds of research/writing difficulty students who do wait until the last minute will encounter), but obviously these can't work if the students don't read them.  I'm very tempted to adopt the quiz approach.  If they're going to act like undergraduates, maybe I need to follow strategies usually used for undergraduates.
____________________

I do need to acknowledge, however, that this (as someone upthread said) is a bimodal thing.  I have a number of students who, rather than procrastinate, actually hand things in early.  They are inevitably the better students, and their work is always superior, even though they got it done in less time.  (Actually, they probably did spend more actual time doing the work, but they did it earlier.)

[oldfullprof]

Drop 'em.  I let one guy back in when he came down and begged.  It got his attention.

[infopri]

Drop 'em.  I let one guy back in when he came down and begged.  It got his attention.

I can only drop students who don't show up for the first session.  But a lot of the students think I can drop them later, and they beg me to let them stay.  I've always been honest and said the decision was up to them--but I also tell them quite explicitly that I think it's in his or her best interests to drop or withdraw.

[littlefred]

I can't drop them either, although I have sincerly wished I could a few times.

Someone upthread mentioned 'keyboard bravery', and those are generally the ones I want to drop. I can usually settle for getting them reprimanded.

Infopri, you are right about the bimodal thing. I'm saddened to hear that Master's students are still doing the same thing as the undergrads. Usually when I teach 3rd years, I have a better attendance and distribution rate.

At the state system online course, last term a HUGE percentage of the students did not pass.... I really thought it would be an issue, actually. Not a peep, in fact, I'm teaching an additional section this semester. So, it must certainly be expected.

[procra]

Octo, I've been taking one online class/semester (with a view towards a career change) while teaching full-time in conventional college classrooms.  Procrastination hasn't been a problem for me, mostly because doing the work for my online classes has become the way I procrastinate on *other* things.  But I've definitely seen a wide range in how effective online classes can be for prompting engagement.  It sounds like you're doing the right things, but I'd back up what the other respondents say--some students just don't (and won't) get it, and there's probably not a lot you can do about it.

The only things I would add (or additionally emphasize) to what you're doing and what's been said before.

--prompt feedback makes a big difference.  It's easy to slip deadlines when it doesn't seem like anyone is paying attention to the deadlines.  On the other hand, if that big fat zero appears within 24 hours of a missed deadline, it has some motivational power.  In one class I took, the profs had a reputation (justified, I might add!) for taking FOREVER to grade labs--so they had a policy that you could hand in a lab late up until the day they started grading that batch (and they were pretty good about letting students know where they stood with the backlog).  That kind of flexibility-where-relevant I think can make students more willing to toe the line for other deadlines.  

--course entry activities.  Some online courses I've taken have several rote tasks that have to be completed for credit in the first week of the class: a syllabus quiz, a practice run in using the course drop-box, a routine post on the course wiki/discussion board, etc.  I'm guessing that the students who can't pull it together to do these fairly mundane activities are not going to do well in the course--and at the end of the first week they'll have a row of zeros in their course grades that should signal to them the problem.  The others are then not in a position to claim that they slipped a deadline because they couldn't find the drop-box or didn't understand the discussion board requirement--they've already shown they know their way around the course components.

--responsive instructors.  If the course is designed in such a way that a piece of software could be teaching it (and yes, I took one such class), it's really hard for a student to get (much less stay) motivated and engaged.  It doesn't take a lot to make it clearly that there is an involved human being on the other side of the screen--occasional replies on public discussion boards, weekly "here's how things are going" e-mails, intermittent comments on grading rubrics (e.g., "good example!" "nicely done!" "good ideas, lousy grammar!").  

 

[galactic_hedgehog]

In one class I took, the profs had a reputation (justified, I might add!) for taking FOREVER to grade labs

I didn't know you were one of my students.

Actually, your perspective as an online student is very helpful.  One thing I definitely need to do is to get the labs done and back in a much more timely manner.  I also need to change my official policy so that the students know what the hard deadlines are.  Last semester I had a student send in labs over a month late.  This time around, the phrase "NO LABS ACCEPTED AFTER..." with references to later penalties.  Last semester I did start to require students to make their first posts in their discussions by specific dates.  I need to update my discussion rubric to better... well, just to be better.

A major factor I've found is confusion on the students' parts.  If they are unsure of what to do on the assignment, I usually never hear from them.  It's not unusual to get a comment like, "I had no idea how to do this," which I will respond to by saying, "Well, you didn't ask me anything."  No matter how many times I tell them how to get in-touch with me, the vast majority of students don't seem to even try.

[procra]

A major factor I've found is confusion on the students' parts.  If they are unsure of what to do on the assignment, I usually never hear from them.   

In the best (most well-designed and organized) online class I've had so far, the procedure for the discussion board was that for every module, every student had to ask two questions about the course material or homework and answer two questions posed by another student.  One of the instructors checked the board at regular intervals to correct erroneous information and answer questions that hadn't gotten responses.  It helped that it was a big class, so the board got a lot of traffic--I'm not sure the technique would work as well in a smaller course (say, 15 - 20).  People did end up using the space to ask questions about the bigger assignments and pool their understanding of the expectations.  I suspect a requirement like that could be tweaked in ways that even more explicitly could encourage the ignorant to seek  help from their peers, even if they are reluctant to e-mail their bafflement to the prof.  FWIW.