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[bread_pirate_naan]

I asked for opinions, and I was very interested in hearing both positive and negative experiences, as that is the only way I can form a balanced view of things.

In the post you quoted I was not trying to claim that every person who says "listen, you might have a hard time having children while in grad school" is anti-feminist.

I was referring to a broader discussion (not one limited to my own case) over whether some of the attempts to warn off female graduate students from having graduate students are motivated by anti-feminist attitudes.

Again, obviously there is some sense in saying "look, you may encounter difficulties in the job market or during school if you have children."
At the same time, if only women are warned off, and if they are not warned off in a tone of "you have to be realistic, it may be difficult" but in a tone of "oh, those women who ruin their lives by having kids instead of focusing on their career" - then it is a problem. This is not a straw man argument. These are slightly paraphrased quotes from conversation I or my classmates have had with professors in our department.

When you choose and articulate the assumptions of others, which number only two, you're building a straw man.  If you got to the end of a PhD without the ability to be objective about that, there's no point.  You seem to want to debate fundamentals, and, well, I don't.

bpn- I think you may have misunderstood my intentions.

Doubt it.

[netiquette]

seem to want to debate fundamentals, and, well, I don't.

What I wanted (and still want) was to get perspectives on the question I raised, including perspectives that suggest this might not be a good idea. I want to know what people have experienced and if people have had negative experiences or feel this is a bad thing then yes - I want to hear that.

In addition, as sometimes happens to forum threads, this one also shifted direction, going into more of a "debate of fundamentals" as you call it. This was not my intention when I opened the thread, but it came up, so I went there.

I apologize if I have in some way offended you or upset you. That was not my intent.

[xylemphone]

i had my first baby at he tail end of grad school, and my second (and final!) one two years later while taking time off to work on publications/job hunt/stay home with baby #1. i got a great job after interviewing 8 months pregnant and a pile of pubs to show for my time at home. i am so glad i did it this way! really, babies are so much work i wouldn't want to be any older (31 when the last was born) and loose that much sleep.

a few words of caution: no one told me that i might be sick the whole 9 mos, or that i'd be epically spacey while pregnant and breastfeeding, or that so many male colleagues would say things like "i hope you aren't lost to science forever", or that a 6-month-old really just doesn't belong on a field expedition ;)

i am also really lucky that my non-academic SO wants to stay home with the kids now that they aren't nursing, this is a huge factor in my ability to be an active scientistmommy

it is both indescribably more difficult than you are imagining and indescribably more fulfilling. a career can be safely delayed longer than a baby can, just keep a hand in through publication and collaboration, and academia will still be there.

best wishes

[demisty]

This may be a great idea: What better time to have kids than in your early thirties?  And if you have a support network (you stated that your partner has a financially substantial job) and means to child care, go for it.  Think about it this way: working class women have been having kids and working since the dawn of time (in my family, for example, almost all of the women have kids and everyone of these women work).  What's so unique about academia that a woman cannot work and raise a family?  Besides, babies are small and sleep like cats.  Couldn't you read and write during those hours of baby rest?

This may not be a good idea: I thought everything that I wrote above for some time, so my partner and I decided to have a kid.  I planned it so that I'd have my baby in May and happily got pregnant right away.  I figured I'll work on my comps in pregnancy and during the first year of my child's life.

Then the complications came: twins, partial bed rest, then full bed rest (me: "I'm still going to teach my classes."  Dr.: "Well, okay, but go right home afterward and get in the bed).  Then my kids came and I still can't get over how much you can love somebody.  Think you love your partner?  Wait to you have a kid.

Then everything was fine, right?  No.  I was tired all the time!  Getting up to nurse, nursing, nurturing babies, and everything regarding taking care of babies take energy!  The advice I was given?  Sleep while they are sleeping.  Of course, you can't read or write while you're sleeping!  By the way, that advice was given to me by my family who lives over 800 miles away and who couldn't babysit or help me out around the house because, well, they were over 800 miles away!

Now, about two years later, I'm still working on my comps (dissertation is almost done, though), I'm always behind on grading and class planning and I'm always tired.  While writing this response, I've had one to two babies on my lap, which is somewhat okay because I can sort of type around them.

Of course, you may not have twins, but you will still have to consider these things: You will be tired and you'll need rest; you'll need child care and/or a support network; you need money; you need insurance; you need time to do things like attend talks, conferences, and readings; you'll need time for yourself; and you have to be sure you can finish the work.

Do I regret my decision to get pregnant and to unintentionally delay getting my degree?  Well, remember that thing I said about love?  It just takes more work and a constant self-reminder of what kind of role-model I'll be for my girls!

[netiquette]

Thank you for sharing your experiences, demisty.

We've begun considering the various aspects and we are certainly taking into accounts the potential for complications such as bedrest etc. Having had cases in my family and acquaintances that involved lengthy fertility treatments, miscarriages and the need for months of bed rest in order to keep a pregnancy safe I am aware of how complicated these things can be (none of the above are in people who are genetically related to me, so there is no hereditary risk for me, but I am familiar with them).

Therefore, I am aware that there is only so much that can be planned and that things may not be as simple as conceiving exactly when we want, having an easy and successful pregnancy and having an easy time raising a baby afterward.

We will certainly take these matters into account as we think about what to do. Thank you again for sharing.

[robinvbird]

I'm in a somewhat different position.. But maybe I could get some input.

I am 20 years old, and have been married for 5 months. I am in my 3rd year of undergraduate for Psychology. I want to get my PhD in Psychology, and I know that will take like 5-7 years after I graduate from my undergrad.

So, thinking about timing for children.. I was wondering if anyone thought it would be better for us to have children before I start graduate school (or at least one) since by that time they would be old enough to be in daycare/have a nanny.

Or, should we wait until the last years of graduate school, like some of you mentioned?

[juillet]

If you are just 20 years old my concern is more about your age and life experience than the PhD.  Setting that aside for a moment, consider the fact that you can never really plan when you're going to be in graduate school until you're in it.  What if you don't get into a PhD program the first time you apply, or even the second?  What if you decide to get a two-year research internship or lab coordinator position before you go to a PhD program?  What if you decide NOT to get your PhD at all, and discover something else you prefer?

As this thread has evidenced, there is no really good time to have children when you are considering graduate school and an academic career.  Having finished my coursework in a psychology PhD program, however, I submit that in my personal opinion, before coursework is one of the worse times.  I am not married and I don't have children; trying to balance the transition to a new city, a new program, new expectations, 2-3 graduate courses and start a line or two of research is difficult enough WITHOUT children.  My first year (and I went straight from undergrad - started at 22) was stressful enough; I didn't have a whole lot of free time.  Not that I think it's impossible for anyone to do, but I wouldn't advise making a plan of it if you don't have to.

Now.  Especially given your age - I hate to say it, but you've got plenty of time (as far as fertile years) to decide to have children.  I also don't know what your spouse does, but consider that day care is going to be expensive and possibly unaffordable on a graduate stipend, depending on where you live and how much your stipend is, unless your university has subsidized day care for children.

I'm a third year and I am only just entering the non-coursework phase of my degree, so I can't comment on that.  But given the comments of other graduate students (including my colleagues who do have children) I'd say that most of them would probably say if you can, wait until you're finished with coursework.  Even if you take 2 years after college and then take 3 years to finish your coursework, you'd still only be around 25.

[marigolds]

Subsidized daycare is a rare and sought-after thing at R1s. Most uni towns have very high childcare costs. In my town it is $1200/month for an infant full-time. 

[polly_mer]

One thing that is overlooked is that daycare alone doesn't solve the problem of time and energy being limited.  All financial considerations aside, babies and toddlers require a ton of energy and time.  Graduate school requires a ton of energy and time.  Some people's abilities, energy, and personal circumstances (combination of home, work, school) mean that everything works out in terms of time and effort.  Other people don't find that to be the case.  You won't know which one you are until you are in the midst of the situation.

People who have had a variety of experiences are more likely to be able to gauge what is feasible for them than people who have less experience.  However, nothing can prepare you for what life is like in graduate school or with an infant or anything else until you do it.  The best thing I can recommend is to not do a whole bunch of huge life shifts at once.  If you've only been married for 5 months at 20 years old, then don't have a baby right away, regardless of anything else.  I married at 19 and made friends who did likewise.  You haven't been through the rough part of getting past the honeymoon stage and you're in school.  Life is tough enough right now without a baby unless you come from hearty stock so that pregnancy will likely be nothing and you have tons of recent experience with daily life with an infant.

[dr_prephd]

unless you come from hearty stock so that pregnancy will likely be nothing and you have tons of recent experience with daily life with an infant

Love the term "hearty stock." I'm imagining a Duggar here.

[polly_mer]

unless you come from hearty stock so that pregnancy will likely be nothing and you have tons of recent experience with daily life with an infant

Love the term "hearty stock." I'm imagining a Duggar here.

Well, one dirty little secret is that some women breeze through the physical aspects of pregnancy and childbirth and some women are in a bad way from the first month so that pregnancy is a short-term disability far in excess of the pooh-poohing of the vocal core who insist that normal pregnancy isn't a problem until delivery.

[medievalmaniac]

One thing that is overlooked is that daycare alone doesn't solve the problem of time and energy being limited.  All financial considerations aside, babies and toddlers require a ton of energy and time.  Graduate school requires a ton of energy and time.  Some people's abilities, energy, and personal circumstances (combination of home, work, school) mean that everything works out in terms of time and effort.  Other people don't find that to be the case.  You won't know which one you are until you are in the midst of the situation.

People who have had a variety of experiences are more likely to be able to gauge what is feasible for them than people who have less experience.  However, nothing can prepare you for what life is like in graduate school or with an infant or anything else until you do it.  The best thing I can recommend is to not do a whole bunch of huge life shifts at once.  If you've only been married for 5 months at 20 years old, then don't have a baby right away, regardless of anything else.  

This. This is a really wise response, particularly as regards taking on more than one giant life change at once - In Robinvbird's case, for example, you're already dealing with a new marriage and being a newly-minted grad student, and that's a lot to handle in and of itself without a child or children involved.

Also, the people posting about daycare costs should be heeded carefully. Daycare is also problematic in that, in many cases, they follow the schedule of local schools, so while they may be year-round daycare programs, they can be closed on snow days, holidays, and fall and spring breaks-  which do NOT necessarily correspond to the university's schedule (personal experience on this one), leaving you scrambling to cover childcare for up to two weeks of the year, if not also all summer, dependent upon the type of daycare program you are using (Our children attend the local YMCA afterschool program, but they have to go to camps over the summer, because the afterschool program does not continue through the summer). Also, if your child is ill or becomes ill during the day, they'll call you to pick him or her up, and then it's a 24-hour window of being symptom free before you can bring your child back to the daycare center, which can pose unforeseen scheduling issues for you. You can often find one or more undergrads looking for extra cash to watch your child(ren) while you are in classes and maybe even for some study time, but in the end, it is usually a very big hassle even with a very reliable daycare center. Not to say don't have kids, but certainly if you are quite young and going into graduate school, you can wait a little while before jumping into the deep end.

And the issue of "normal" pregnancy is another one to consider carefully. I had two very uneventful pregnancies, and still had trouble getting through the final trimester the second time around because I kept falling asleep (working full time and going to grad school at night, plus parenting the one we already had). I had a friend who is healthier than I am, younger than I am, and had a perfect first trimester, and she ended up having to drop out halfway through the semester because she went on bedrest for 20 weeks due to placenta previa. You just don't know what the possibilities are until you are actually there doing it...it might seem like things are fine, but anything really can happen.

All that said, I do, however, believe this is a personal decision and that it is absolutely possible to have babies and do grad school successfully. You just have to be prepared for being completely unprepared, and be OK with a fairly high degree of ambiguity in life for a while. As long as you don't "have" to be in control of everything, you can certainly make it work and even enjoy it. :o)

[mouseman]

You just have to be prepared for being completely unprepared, and be OK with a fairly high degree of ambiguity in life for a while. As long as you don't "have" to be in control of everything, you can certainly make it work and even enjoy it. :o)

This is a basic truth of having kids, period. 


Actually, it is a basic truth of life...

[dr_prephd]

You just have to be prepared for being completely unprepared, and be OK with a fairly high degree of ambiguity in life for a while. As long as you don't "have" to be in control of everything, you can certainly make it work and even enjoy it. :o)

This is a basic truth of having kids, period. 


Actually, it is a basic truth of life...

Agreed. You can plan all you want. But s*** happens.

[mouseman]

This thread has been here for a while, and I have posted on it, yet, every time I read the title, the thought that comes, unbidden, to my mind is:  "Yeah, they do seem younger each year, don't they?"