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[larryc]

Detailed feedback is a huge waste of time if you don't allow-or better, require--rewrites.

I assign a paper due on the first day  of the second week. Five pages based on a unique set of questions over a short book. I mark the s*** out of the student papers and grade them fiercely, using only two grades--B, and Rewrite (sometimes I don't give any Bs). I prepare a handout of the most common errors, and review them with the class. Then I hand around a piece of my own writing with tons of editor's marks on it. As the students look it over I talk about the importance of rewriting to the writing process. At this point one student will say "This is going to be bad, isn't it?" Then, with jokes and encouragement, I hand back the papers. If they got a "Rewrite" they must rewrite the paper, attach the original, and get it back to me in a week. If they got a B they can rewrite if they like. Only the grade on the rewrite counts. "You can all still get an A!" I tell them.

They nearly all do a fine job on the rewritten papers (except for the 10% of the class I lose--bonus!). This reinforces something I have long thought, that most students can write better than they normally do write. You just have to show them the fear.

I usually assign two more 5 page essays during the semester. The second essays are so much better than the first! I still grade them pretty hard and assign a handful of rewrites, but more As. The third essays I just glance and grade, generously.

I see dramatic improvement in student writing over the course of the semester, and even more so when students take multiple courses with me. And the policy has additional benefits--it drives the slackers out of my classes right at the start of the quarter, it causes the rest of the students to prioritize my course over their other classes, and (counterintuitive thought it may seem) it gets me great student evaluations. And nicely written ones as well.

[kshenko]

mystictechgal, I do understand your perspective, but I don't necessarily think your expectations are realistic.  Since "college writing" is not what I teach and there are substantive content-area issues to emphasize, I frankly don't have the time to be teaching my students how to write.  However, I do refer them to the Writing Center by noting their general problems (e.g., "your writing is too colloquial" or "you seem confused about the use of colons"). 

Ideally, a professor would have all the time in the world to conduct research, publish, serve on committees--and teach students everything from the specialty area knowledge, lab skills, professional conduct, to writing.  Unfortunately, however, that doesn't happen in real life.  We must prioritize, and I do believe that is why campus writing centers were established in the first place...

If I were to focus on student writing more, I wouldn't be able to pay as much attention to the "substantive" aspects of the written works by my students.  Since my Ph.D. is in my area of specialty, which is not English, and I have been hired to teach this specialty area, I feel comfortable in referring my students to the Writing Center rather than taking on the role of a "writing teacher."

With this all said, I used to make detailed comments and extensive edits.  It didn't take me too long, though, to realize that nobody was actually paying attention to my feedback in a thoughtful manner.  In completing their revisions, they were just correcting the "surface errors" I had pointed out, without really paying attention to the underlying issues I was raising.  Needless to say, my "detailed feedback" was not reflected in their subsequent written works...which prompted me to stop.

[mountainguy]

One thing that's worked well for me in the past has been to allow rewrites of papers, but to average the original grade together with the new grade. It works for two reasons: (1) students have an incentive to do well on the original draft in the first place, and (2) the slackers decide that it simply isn't worth the effort for only a slight grade increase, but it still makes the grade-conscious students happy. In my class of 24 last summer, maybe six students decided to do revisions, and they all did a good job with it.

[fosca]

I'm having problems with an "I know the subject better than you do" student.  We've had several conversations like this:

Student:  <incorrect post>

Me:  You need to have a control group as well as the experimental group.
 
Student:  <revision with no control group>

Me:  As I said before, you need to have a control group.
 
Student:  But <incorrect ideas about how experiments are run>
 
Me:  <Points out errors>  And I want you to devise an experiment with a control group, so I know you understand the concept.
 
Student:  <new revision with no control group>
 
Lather, rinse, repeat.
 
I'm this close to saying "Look, I'm the professor, so odds are I have a better idea of what you need to do here than you do.  Not to mention that I'm the one grading this, so I know what I'm looking for."

[kshenko]

I'm having problems with an "I know the subject better than you do" student. 
 

Uggggggggggggggggggh, I absolutely can't stand it when they think they know better than we do.  And, in my experience, these are typically my lower-performing students!

Last semester, I had a couple of MA thesis students like that.  One completely mischaracterized my grad advisor's work, and the other did mine...  When I pointed out, both got highly defensive and refused to revise.  They kept on saying (via e-mail and in person) that they were correct and I was wrong, etc. without any citations or substantive support. 

[mended_drum]

Keith Hjorthoj's Transition to College Writing has a very clear and effective chapter explaining to students the disadvantages of making the first draft the last.  It might not make students change their ways, but it will give them insight into the effects of the choice they're making.

[moodymoodie]

Detailed feedback is a huge waste of time if you don't allow-or better, require--rewrites.

I assign a paper due on the first day  of the second week. Five pages based on a unique set of questions over a short book. I mark the s*** out of the student papers and grade them fiercely, using only two grades--B, and Rewrite (sometimes I don't give any Bs). I prepare a handout of the most common errors, and review them with the class. Then I hand around a piece of my own writing with tons of editor's marks on it. As the students look it over I talk about the importance of rewriting to the writing process. At this point one student will say "This is going to be bad, isn't it?" Then, with jokes and encouragement, I hand back the papers. If they got a "Rewrite" they must rewrite the paper, attach the original, and get it back to me in a week. If they got a B they can rewrite if they like. Only the grade on the rewrite counts. "You can all still get an A!" I tell them.

They nearly all do a fine job on the rewritten papers (except for the 10% of the class I lose--bonus!). This reinforces something I have long thought, that most students can write better than they normally do write. You just have to show them the fear.

This is brilliant. Truly. I mean, I require rewrites, and I do the "tough but Extra! Encouraging!" thing, but I just love this process.

[ianelay]

I'm having problems with an "I know the subject better than you do" student.  We've had several conversations like this:

Student:  <incorrect post>

Me:  You need to have a control group as well as the experimental group.
 
Student:  <revision with no control group>

Me:  As I said before, you need to have a control group.
 
Student:  But <incorrect ideas about how experiments are run>
 
Me:  <Points out errors>  And I want you to devise an experiment with a control group, so I know you understand the concept.
 
Student:  <new revision with no control group>
 
Lather, rinse, repeat.
 
I'm this close to saying "Look, I'm the professor, so odds are I have a better idea of what you need to do here than you do.  Not to mention that I'm the one grading this, so I know what I'm looking for."

Heh.

I got tired of seeing only surface revisions in response to feedback and peer reviews, and this year I'm going to see if a report to address reviewer comments will get students to actually read and use their feedback. The model for this is the review process that happens before a journal article is accepted.

EMBO J has been releasing their review process files along with their articles. I have been using this to show students what the process looks like. You can access the files online:

http://www.nature.com/emboj/journal/v29/n22/index.html

The articles, unfortunately, require some detailed knowledge of cellular and molecular biology. However, it can be seen that the reviewers criticize everything:  experimental design, lack of controls, failure to rule out or consider alternate interpretations, presentation of data, incomplete knowledge of the scientific literature, and difficulty in understanding the writing. The authors' responses show what they have edited, what they have left untouched, and why. The editor's note makes it clear that publication depends on the assessment of the reviewers, the success of the revisions, and "the completeness of your responses".


Maybe this will work in convincing your student to rethink his/her experimental design? A reviewer is going to point out the same deficiency, and insist that the experiments be redesigned and repeated. Poor experimental design will keep the paper from getting published, and the delays increase the risk of that student getting scooped.

[fosca]

That's a good idea, but unfortunately the motivator won't really work in this case.  I'm teaching a survey course, and this is just one of the assignments.  The students has behaved like this on several different assignments so far, on very different aspects of the subjects.  And it's getting really old.

[larryc]

Detailed feedback is a huge waste of time if you don't allow-or better, require--rewrites.

I assign a paper due on the first day  of the second week. Five pages based on a unique set of questions over a short book. I mark the s*** out of the student papers and grade them fiercely, using only two grades--B, and Rewrite (sometimes I don't give any Bs). I prepare a handout of the most common errors, and review them with the class. Then I hand around a piece of my own writing with tons of editor's marks on it. As the students look it over I talk about the importance of rewriting to the writing process. At this point one student will say "This is going to be bad, isn't it?" Then, with jokes and encouragement, I hand back the papers. If they got a "Rewrite" they must rewrite the paper, attach the original, and get it back to me in a week. If they got a B they can rewrite if they like. Only the grade on the rewrite counts. "You can all still get an A!" I tell them.

They nearly all do a fine job on the rewritten papers (except for the 10% of the class I lose--bonus!). This reinforces something I have long thought, that most students can write better than they normally do write. You just have to show them the fear.

This is brilliant. Truly. I mean, I require rewrites, and I do the "tough but Extra! Encouraging!" thing, but I just love this process.

I stole most of it from my PhD advisor, and adapted it to the students in front of me at an open admissions 4 year college. Come to think of it almost everything in my teaching toolbox is taken from someone else. I am a magpie.

[moodymoodie]

Detailed feedback is a huge waste of time if you don't allow-or better, require--rewrites.

I assign a paper due on the first day  of the second week. Five pages based on a unique set of questions over a short book. I mark the s*** out of the student papers and grade them fiercely, using only two grades--B, and Rewrite (sometimes I don't give any Bs). I prepare a handout of the most common errors, and review them with the class. Then I hand around a piece of my own writing with tons of editor's marks on it. As the students look it over I talk about the importance of rewriting to the writing process. At this point one student will say "This is going to be bad, isn't it?" Then, with jokes and encouragement, I hand back the papers. If they got a "Rewrite" they must rewrite the paper, attach the original, and get it back to me in a week. If they got a B they can rewrite if they like. Only the grade on the rewrite counts. "You can all still get an A!" I tell them.

They nearly all do a fine job on the rewritten papers (except for the 10% of the class I lose--bonus!). This reinforces something I have long thought, that most students can write better than they normally do write. You just have to show them the fear.

This is brilliant. Truly. I mean, I require rewrites, and I do the "tough but Extra! Encouraging!" thing, but I just love this process.

I stole most of it from my PhD advisor, and adapted it to the students in front of me at an open admissions 4 year college. Come to think of it almost everything in my teaching toolbox is taken from someone else. I am a magpie.

Well, then, let the circle be unbroken, because I'm going to steal it from you! It'll go in the box right alongside my high-school French teacher's trick of asking people questions at random and a junior college colleague's correction code policy.

[nebo113]

I'm having problems with an "I know the subject better than you do" student.  We've had several conversations like this:

Student:  <incorrect post>

Me:  You need to have a control group as well as the experimental group.
 
Student:  <revision with no control group>

Me:  As I said before, you need to have a control group.
 
Student:  But <incorrect ideas about how experiments are run>
 
Me:  <Points out errors>  And I want you to devise an experiment with a control group, so I know you understand the concept.
 
Student:  <new revision with no control group>
 
Lather, rinse, repeat.
 
I'm this close to saying "Look, I'm the professor, so odds are I have a better idea of what you need to do here than you do.  Not to mention that I'm the one grading this, so I know what I'm looking for."

Why are you waiting?  Just this past week, I told a student, "No, you can't do it your way.  You do it my way.  I'm the teacher.  I know what I'm doing and I get to make the rules."  Said following conversation you had with your student.  I have his younger brother.

[cgfunmathguy]

Detailed feedback is a huge waste of time if you don't allow-or better, require--rewrites.

I assign a paper due on the first day  of the second week. Five pages based on a unique set of questions over a short book. I mark the s*** out of the student papers and grade them fiercely, using only two grades--B, and Rewrite (sometimes I don't give any Bs). I prepare a handout of the most common errors, and review them with the class. Then I hand around a piece of my own writing with tons of editor's marks on it. As the students look it over I talk about the importance of rewriting to the writing process. At this point one student will say "This is going to be bad, isn't it?" Then, with jokes and encouragement, I hand back the papers. If they got a "Rewrite" they must rewrite the paper, attach the original, and get it back to me in a week. If they got a B they can rewrite if they like. Only the grade on the rewrite counts. "You can all still get an A!" I tell them.

They nearly all do a fine job on the rewritten papers (except for the 10% of the class I lose--bonus!). This reinforces something I have long thought, that most students can write better than they normally do write. You just have to show them the fear.

This is brilliant. Truly. I mean, I require rewrites, and I do the "tough but Extra! Encouraging!" thing, but I just love this process.

I stole most of it from my PhD advisor, and adapted it to the students in front of me at an open admissions 4 year college. Come to think of it almost everything in my teaching toolbox is taken from someone else. I am a magpie.

Well, then, let the circle be unbroken, because I'm going to steal it from you! It'll go in the box right alongside my high-school French teacher's trick of asking people questions at random and a junior college colleague's correction code policy.

I'm stealing it, too. This coming summer, I get to teach one section of the core/gen-ed seminar class for first-year students, which requires lots of writing. I think, maybe, that I'll find a way to incorporate this revision process.

[wakingtime]

I'm wiped out and not thinking clearly, but I do want to thank you all for the fresh approaches. It's encouraging. I'll reread this thread when I'm more together.

[prytania3]

I have a student who thinks that everything he puts on paper is genius and brilliantly written. He's not a bad writer, but he's not great by any means. He complained the other day about all my comments.

I told him next time I wouldn't waste my time trying to help him improve. I'd just say, "It's brilliant. Send it to the New Yorker."