next »

[tuxedo_cat]

So yes, 3/3 is fine with me, but I would never teach anything more than that. You hear me right, I will leave academia before taking a 4/4 job, because I did not spend so many years getting a PhD to be a slave. I know times are tough, but if after 2 or 3 more rounds on the job market I end up getting nothing, I'll move on.

Well that's a good idea, because having experience teaching a 4/4 certainly isn't going to be valuable background for moving into a 3/3.  And you're definitely a more appealing job candidate if you have *no* academic job and no institutional affiliation rather than a TT job teaching a 4/4.

[ruralguy]

I teach 4/3 at a SLAC in the sciences. You probably haven't heard of my school (not that I really care---I hadn't heard of it until a colleague told me about it a couple of years before I applied for a job here)

I admit, 15-20 yrs ago I probably thought teaching 4/3 would make me a slave (not that I even knew what "load" meant...).

I generally teach two lectures, one being a big intro thing, and one being a small upper level.
In a three semester, the third course is often a lab, and in a 4 semester, two of them might be labs.
Often, schools treat labs as "half", so I consider myself lucky.

I'd say I publish a first authored paper in a good journal every several years (yeah, I know, that'd be worth zero at an R1, you don't have to tell me!) , and other stuff in between. But I do what I want, and there is no grant pressure.

Now, in a 4 semester, when I teach a new course, am on 2 committees that are busy, and have a few  research students it can feel worse, but no worse than writing a bunch of grant apps at an R1, most likely.
Every job has its high pressures, so it boils down to what you like, and what you are good at.

If you don't want to do it, and can't see yourself adapting, then don't! There are plenty of people who want the job.

[anthroid]

Good grief.  Some of you are lucky to be working at all with the kinds of attitudes I'm seeing expressed here.  I work at one of those little no-name schools, though we don't demand all that much stuff.  I also will very likely be hiring a fair number of folks across the disciplines this year.  You can be sure I'll be looking for your materials quite eagerly--half-assed teaching statements, complete lack of interest in working with students on research projects, attitude dripping off of the paper clips, contempt for the students who will be helping to pay your salary.

Yes, please, by all means, apply to my little no-name school.  My desk leans sideways and I need some shims to make it sit up straight.  Your cv will do quite nicely.

And if you don't care enough to look at a school's website before you apply, maybe taking a gander at the mission statement, I can see how the Christ-centered thing might upset you.  But if you really had an interest in the place, you'd know about its Christ-centeredness before you applied, and you wouldn't have applied if it bothered you (I know I don't apply for jobs in those kinds of places).

Sheesh.

[pink_]

The big R1s just want to know that you'll be publishing in first tier journals and bringing in the bucks.  They can look at your research and publishing/grant record and figure that out.
They don't care whether you can design a good course, reach poorly-prepared students, or understand the difference between delivering content and teaching.
That's their niche and they provide valuable service.  

The little places generally want you for your teaching ability.  If you think showing off your ability to design courses and teach is an irrelevant time-waster, you're fishing in the wrong pond.

And more than anything else, they don't want to be thought of as "little no-name schools."  I mean, just because you haven't heard of them...sheesh.

As one who teaches at a "little no-name school," let me suggest that you just apply elsewhere.

How hard is it to get a couple of extra letters?  I had 6 on file at interfolio, which allowed me to present a slightly different picture to different SCs at different kinds of institutions.  Sending 4 or 5 meant a couple extra mouse-clicks.

Heaven forbid a SC want to attract candidates who are best-suited for their institutions.  Looking at someone's syllabi is a very good way to determine what kind of teacher someone is, what they bring to a department, and how they think about their pedagogy.

[voxprincipalis]

these obscure schools that ask for all those materials raise a lot of red flags. If I go and work there I'll be miserable, so why even apply? I recommend you adopt my approach - ignore those job ads and don't apply. Better for you, and better for the SCs there.

How is that approach working for you?

I don't know how it's working for zupixx, but as an SC member, I am glad that will be one less application for me to look at. If you think we are wasting your time, then by applying you are *definitely* wasting ours. So yeah, keep your attitude and your CV to yourself, because even though I don't teach at a "no-name" school, these obscure applicants who complain about all these materials raise a lot of red flags.

VP

[quasihumanist]

I think in large part what is going on is that at these small schools, the people writing the ad don't know what the standards in your field are.  They are probably out of your field, and there is no one in the field whom they can consult (or the person whom they can consult has been out of touch with the job market for so long they have no idea).  So they ask for what is standard in their field, or ask for what they think is reasonable.

I don't understand this. The people in the department know what is standard in the field. You know, being in the field themselves and all. From what I've seen, this has little to do with an ignorance of norms in the field, and much more to do with the needs of the specific department in question. Remember: their goal is not to satisfy your desire to have them conform to what you think is normal. Their goal is to fill a need that they have. I think it's safest to use that assumption as a basis for any judgment calls.

My experience looking at ads is that only a very few places have really strange requests, and those are in fact the places where there is only one untenured person in my discipline, and the Dean, or the chair of the department who is actually in a different discipline, is doing the hiring.

[zupixx]

I couldn't agree more. I love teaching, really, and despite coming from a top R1 school I actually enjoy it more than research. I'm a VAP of history at a large state university, and would love to move to a SLAC. So yes, 3/3 is fine with me, but I would never teach anything more than that. You hear me right, I will leave academia before taking a 4/4 job, because I did not spend so many years getting a PhD to be a slave.

Slave??! Don't be a jackass. What do you actually know about a 4/4 load, what exactly is your experience that enables you to speak with such confidence? Slave! I find it hard to believe you are a historian.

Sorry, larryc (and the others), I did not mean to offend anyone. Let me explain.
I believe higher education's first purpose is to create new knowledge. I hardly see how this can be done with a teaching load of 4/4. Sure, you're right, I've never taught a 4/4 load, but my 2/2 at the large state university I'm at already doesn't leave too much time for research, so 4/4? That would mean a job that involves only teaching, with being so burned out by the end of the semester, that going on a research trip over winter break would be the last thing I'd like to do. A 4/4 load would also, so it seems to me from what I've read here and learned from friends who teach it, leave me little time to give personal attention to my students. For instance, I often do 1 on 1 sessions instead of lectures. This is far better for the students, but who will have time for that teaching 4/4? Not to mention keeping myself up to date with current developments in my field...

Look, I think this is a matter of perspective. I did my undergraduate degree at a school outside the US. In that university, and all the others in that country, 2/2 is the standards. These are all state schools, but the state recognizes the need to leave time for research. In fact, full professors there teach 2/1, and sometimes 1/1. To people there, even a 3/3 load is unheard of. They have, I guess, a different approach to higher education. And I'm sorry if in the American system things work differently. But I am still entitled to my opinion that having spent 10 years in good schools should enable me to find a job that leaves some time for research and does not overwork me with 200-student classes and a schedule that requires me to be in the office 4-5 days a week while paying only 40k$ a year or so. To me, in academia, this is called "modern slavery," and I'm sorry larryc, but this has nothing to do with being a historian. Historians are entitled to have opinions too, even when they are fundamentally different than yours. The people I know who teach 4/4 agree with my definition of modern slavery, so perhaps it is not that outrageous after all...   

I know, I know, the responses to this post will suggest that I'm out of touch with reality, that in this economy I must take what's available, and that amateurs like me should not speak so decisively about a world they don't know well enough. Ok, point taken. But to me the economy won't be a reason to compromise. I will stay a VAP as long as I can until I find a tt that works for me, and move up from there.  And yes, I know there's a chance that by refusing to teach at a 4/4 I may eventually find myself outside academia. That is a scenario I'm willing to accept.

[watermarkup]

I don't mind requests for 4 or 5 letters, or research statements, or teaching statements, or anything like that. I've applied to lots of no-name places, taught 4-4 my whole teaching career, and believe that people can be happy and productive in those jobs, but...

I gotta draw the line somewhere. There's standard applications (OK), there's excessive requests (OK, too), and then there's just plain bizarre. This year, I am not producing a major multi-media project (in a traditional MLA field) in order to apply to Backwards State U. I went through with it last time, but I was in desperate straits back then. Now I've got a VAP I can ride a bit longer, and I just don't have time for it.

So, sorry, Backwards State U. Based on that bizarre job ad and a quick scan of your web site, I decided that your program is in a shambles, and I'm just not into you right now. There is something like a 0.25% chance that you might have been the only TT job offer I'll ever get. Whatever.

I know that job ads are meant solely to serve the interests of the hiring department and not the job seekers, but shouldn't "not coming off as totally clueless and out of touch" belong to the institutional priorities?

[lizzy]

I couldn't agree more. I love teaching, really, and despite coming from a top R1 school I actually enjoy it more than research. I'm a VAP of history at a large state university, and would love to move to a SLAC. So yes, 3/3 is fine with me, but I would never teach anything more than that. You hear me right, I will leave academia before taking a 4/4 job, because I did not spend so many years getting a PhD to be a slave.

Slave??! Don't be a jackass. What do you actually know about a 4/4 load, what exactly is your experience that enables you to speak with such confidence? Slave! I find it hard to believe you are a historian.

Sorry, larryc (and the others), I did not mean to offend anyone. Let me explain.
I believe higher education's first purpose is to create new knowledge. I hardly see how this can be done with a teaching load of 4/4. Sure, you're right, I've never taught a 4/4 load, but my 2/2 at the large state university I'm at already doesn't leave too much time for research, so 4/4? That would mean a job that involves only teaching, with being so burned out by the end of the semester, that going on a research trip over winter break would be the last thing I'd like to do. A 4/4 load would also, so it seems to me from what I've read here and learned from friends who teach it, leave me little time to give personal attention to my students. For instance, I often do 1 on 1 sessions instead of lectures. This is far better for the students, but who will have time for that teaching 4/4? Not to mention keeping myself up to date with current developments in my field...

Look, I think this is a matter of perspective. I did my undergraduate degree at a school outside the US. In that university, and all the others in that country, 2/2 is the standards. These are all state schools, but the state recognizes the need to leave time for research. In fact, full professors there teach 2/1, and sometimes 1/1. To people there, even a 3/3 load is unheard of. They have, I guess, a different approach to higher education. And I'm sorry if in the American system things work differently. But I am still entitled to my opinion that having spent 10 years in good schools should enable me to find a job that leaves some time for research and does not overwork me with 200-student classes and a schedule that requires me to be in the office 4-5 days a week while paying only 40k$ a year or so. To me, in academia, this is called "modern slavery," and I'm sorry larryc, but this has nothing to do with being a historian. Historians are entitled to have opinions too, even when they are fundamentally different than yours. The people I know who teach 4/4 agree with my definition of modern slavery, so perhaps it is not that outrageous after all...   

I know, I know, the responses to this post will suggest that I'm out of touch with reality, that in this economy I must take what's available, and that amateurs like me should not speak so decisively about a world they don't know well enough. Ok, point taken. But to me the economy won't be a reason to compromise. I will stay a VAP as long as I can until I find a tt that works for me, and move up from there.  And yes, I know there's a chance that by refusing to teach at a 4/4 I may eventually find myself outside academia. That is a scenario I'm willing to accept.

Good luck with that.

You can hardly see how new knowledge can be created with a 4/4 precisely because you haven't been in this position. But most of the profession is in this position, or something quite close. And, oddly enough, knowledge continues to be created. Go figure.

You don't seem to understand the insulting way you characterize the professional lives of many of us on these boards, myself included. So, let's take me for an example:

I teach a 4/4. I continue to be quite productive in my scholarly endeavors. Granted, if I had a 2/2, I'd be grinding out much more work. There are periods during the semester when I must put aside my research. But I have a strong publication record (quite strong in my humanities field--I won't count my books and articles and awards for you here) and many of my colleagues are very active scholars. I find ways to focus on my work, and the majority of faculty in my department are more than "only" teachers; no one I know has burned out. Many lead (gasp) satisfying lives.

Regardless of the rankings of our schools, we find ways to work with our circumstances. I choose to not buy into the propaganda that says a 4/4 load means the end of scholarship. Too bad you accept this idea and thus shut down potential avenues for employment and growth. 

Personally, I find it amusing that you have trouble publishing while teaching 2/2. Perhaps if you took a job outside your comfort zone you might find that you could do more than your limited thinking would indicate.

[fourhats]

Dear Zupixx,

I know, I know.  The function of an academic is to create new knowledge.  But put yourself on the other side:  an institution is hiring you to educate its students.  That is what they are PAYING you for.  It may seem like slavery to you, but from their perspective they are shelling out good money, in a bad economy, to provide a service to their students, who after all pay (if indirectly) your salary. This may involve teaching more sections of the same course.  But in the end, while your research is valuable and important (I know mine is to me), it's hard to justify complaining that they ask you to do too much of what they not only need, but have advertised for.  If you don't like what they need, you don't need to apply to work there.

[cgfunmathguy]

I couldn't agree more. I love teaching, really, and despite coming from a top R1 school I actually enjoy it more than research. I'm a VAP of history at a large state university, and would love to move to a SLAC. So yes, 3/3 is fine with me, but I would never teach anything more than that. You hear me right, I will leave academia before taking a 4/4 job, because I did not spend so many years getting a PhD to be a slave.

Slave??! Don't be a jackass. What do you actually know about a 4/4 load, what exactly is your experience that enables you to speak with such confidence? Slave! I find it hard to believe you are a historian.

Sorry, larryc (and the others), I did not mean to offend anyone. Let me explain.
I believe higher education's first purpose is to create new knowledge. I hardly see how this can be done with a teaching load of 4/4. Sure, you're right, I've never taught a 4/4 load, but my 2/2 at the large state university I'm at already doesn't leave too much time for research, so 4/4? That would mean a job that involves only teaching, with being so burned out by the end of the semester, that going on a research trip over winter break would be the last thing I'd like to do. A 4/4 load would also, so it seems to me from what I've read here and learned from friends who teach it, leave me little time to give personal attention to my students. For instance, I often do 1 on 1 sessions instead of lectures. This is far better for the students, but who will have time for that teaching 4/4? Not to mention keeping myself up to date with current developments in my field...

It happens at my no-name school all the time. I teach a 4/4 with overloads because our department is short one faculty member and won't get a new one anytime soon. I hold ten (soon to be, eight) office hours per week, and students who want personal attention come to them. I serve in the faculty senate and chair a significant standing committee. I also have time to read three journals in my field. It can be done.

Do I publish? No, although I would have time in the summer if I wanted. The thing is that my no-name school went from a 5/5 to a 4/4 specifically to encourage faculty development. While we aren't told to publish or present, it is strongly encouraged, and it is expected to become the norm in a few years. While the dean doesn't expect the output one would have at an R1, s/he'd like to see some output from the faculty on a regular basis. What s/he wants is not unreasonable, but the time management necessary to accomplish it needs to be developed in some (like yours truly).

Look, I think this is a matter of perspective. I did my undergraduate degree at a school outside the US. In that university, and all the others in that country, 2/2 is the standards. These are all state schools, but the state recognizes the need to leave time for research. In fact, full professors there teach 2/1, and sometimes 1/1. To people there, even a 3/3 load is unheard of. They have, I guess, a different approach to higher education. And I'm sorry if in the American system things work differently. But I am still entitled to my opinion that having spent 10 years in good schools should enable me to find a job that leaves some time for research and does not overwork me with 200-student classes and a schedule that requires me to be in the office 4-5 days a week while paying only 40k$ a year or so. To me, in academia, this is called "modern slavery," and I'm sorry larryc, but this has nothing to do with being a historian. Historians are entitled to have opinions too, even when they are fundamentally different than yours. The people I know who teach 4/4 agree with my definition of modern slavery, so perhaps it is not that outrageous after all...   

It is very much a matter of perspective. My undergraduate institution was a large state flagship R1. The professors taught 2/1 at worst and 1/1 normally. My graduate institution was a regional comprehensive where the faculty taught 2/2 or 3/2. This is typical of those types of schools. However, many schools don't offer doctorates, and some don't even offer master's degrees. These are the "teaching schools." As a rule, they typically don't have 200-student classes; I only found those in the R1s and regional comprehensives. Yes, I'm expected to be in my office four or five days a week, but I'm also not running a lab. As I noted above, research can be done if you can figure out the time management issues. I haven't yet, so I don't research. I do, however, read journals in my field so that I can stay abreast of what's happening.

If you want "modern slavery" and want to find it in academia, I suggest you try teaching K-12. You teach the equivalent of an 8/8 and are expected to earn continuing education credits constantly to maintain your certification (teaching license). You have 150 students a day, only about 15 of whom want to be there, and if a parent wants a conference because "Johnny just is getting along well in your class", you better give it to them and accept their criticism with a smile. Higher education, even at a 4/4, have it made by miles.

I know, I know, the responses to this post will suggest that I'm out of touch with reality, that in this economy I must take what's available, and that amateurs like me should not speak so decisively about a world they don't know well enough. Ok, point taken. But to me the economy won't be a reason to compromise. I will stay a VAP as long as I can until I find a tt that works for me, and move up from there.  And yes, I know there's a chance that by refusing to teach at a 4/4 I may eventually find myself outside academia. That is a scenario I'm willing to accept.

"Out of touch" doesn't begin to describe it. R1s and regional comprehensives are a smaller portion of academia than the small, "no-name" schools are. Reading other threads should show that the perennial VAP is almost as much of a warning sign as a constant adjunct. If you've spent more than three or four years as a VAP, your odds to be hired start to drop. That's not my opinion; that's the wisdom of the fora on several threads that I've read over the last four years. With the job market tightening instead of loosening, that's something to which I'd pay attention.

By the way, if you leave academia because you don't want to teach a 4/4, are you going to be able to find a job that will give you any time to do the research you claim to want to be able to do? Just some food for thought.

On preview: Well said, Lizzy.

[zupixx]

Good luck with that.

You can hardly see how new knowledge can be created with a 4/4 precisely because you haven't been in this position. But most of the profession is in this position, or something quite close. And, oddly enough, knowledge continues to be created. Go figure.

You don't seem to understand the insulting way you characterize the professional lives of many of us on these boards, myself included. So, let's take me for an example:

I teach a 4/4. I continue to be quite productive in my scholarly endeavors. Granted, if I had a 2/2, I'd be grinding out much more work. There are periods during the semester when I must put aside my research. But I have a strong publication record (quite strong in my humanities field--I won't count my books and articles and awards for you here) and many of my colleagues are very active scholars. I find ways to focus on my work, and the majority of faculty in my department are more than "only" teachers; no one I know has burned out. Many lead (gasp) satisfying lives.

Regardless of the rankings of our schools, we find ways to work with our circumstances. I choose to not buy into the propaganda that says a 4/4 load means the end of scholarship. Too bad you accept this idea and thus shut down potential avenues for employment and growth.  

Personally, I find it amusing that you have trouble publishing while teaching 2/2. Perhaps if you took a job outside your comfort zone you might find that you could do more than your limited thinking would indicate.

Sorry again, I did not mean to insult anyone. I understand that what doesn't work for me may very well work for you and many others. So let me take my words back and just say this: surely, as you say, one can find ways to do research and teach a heavier load than 2/2 or 3/3. That path, however, doesn't fit everyone, and some people find it very hard to be productive when they are distracted by so many other things, even if they have the time to sit down and write. That's me, but if you can do a lot more teaching than I currently do and publish, I truly envy you. I understand, as I've already said, that this means I may never find the tt position I want, and I'm ok with that. I don't think schools that have a 4/4 teaching load would want someone like me, and I wouldn't want to be there, so everyone's happy. In my subfield, by the way, most positions are 2/2, 2/3, or 3/3. I have seen very few ads for more than 3/3, so it is very unlikely that I'll have to actually face the question of whether to apply for such positions.

Dear Zupixx,

I know, I know.  The function of an academic is to create new knowledge.  But put yourself on the other side:  an institution is hiring you to educate its students. That is what they are PAYING you for.  

Actually, no. The main job of a university professor at a research university is to conduct research. There are still states and private donors who realize that and devote resources for that purpose. The scenario you are describing fits 4/4 schools, or even SLACs with 3/3, that's true. I love teaching, don't get me wrong, but I still think my main purpose is to create knowledge. That is what differentiates me from the average intellectual who reads books and knows what's going on in the world. That is what gives me the right to educate others. If you can do that with a 4/4 teaching load, as lizzy and others apparently can, that's good. I just don't think I'd be able to work in such an environment.

By the way, if you leave academia because you don't want to teach a 4/4, are you going to be able to find a job that will give you any time to do the research you claim to want to be able to do? Just some food for thought.

No, I won't. Leaving academia means giving up my dreams. But I'll know (again, that's me) that I'd be so miserable teaching 4/4 or more that I don't see that as an option. Again, this is my perspective now, and it may very well change after another year or two on the market. Time will tell.

[anthroid]

Golly ned.  While teaching a 5/5 (at super-tiny little no-name school), I published my first book .  While teaching a 4/4 at a regular little no-name school, I wrote my second book, and I published it while teaching a 2/2, but only because I was chairing a huge department at a no-name regional state u (normal professorial load of 4/4).  In between I delivered a number of disciplinary papers at national conferences and published several articles.

But I guess I wasn't producing knowledge in the way Zupixx means.

Oh, and when I was teaching in Europe (at the major university in the country where I was living), I taught the equivalent of a 4/4, as did everyone else.  And yet I was able to publish several articles pre-Ph.D. and deliver a number of papers. 

I did all of this while earning, on average, a 4.6 rating on a 5.0 scale of my teaching evaluations.  Zupixx's view of the world is very weird, especially the idea that somehow teaching students one-on-one is superior to teaching them in a larger classroom.  What a small world that must be.  In my world, I guide the discussion but students have a responsibility to teach, and learn from, each other.  This is how my undergraduate experience was, several decades ago; perhaps my 20 years as an academic (after another one in the business and non-profit worlds) haven't taught me what I need to know to survive in Zupixx's world. 

What a damned shame.

And, Zupixx, you have no right, of any kind, to characterize the lives of 80% of American academics as slavery.  You have no clue about the true meaning of slavery, given what you're posting.  Hyperbole is not your friend here.  A 4/4 load is about as far from slavery as I can imagine.  Indeed, the demands of a R1 frighten me far more than those of my current institution.  Higher education is only partly about the production of knowledge; most of it, in this country, is about the dissemination of knowledge.  That is why higher ed exists.  Basic knowledge production, in itself, is worthless without an audience.

[cgfunmathguy]

Dear Zupixx,

I know, I know.  The function of an academic is to create new knowledge.  But put yourself on the other side:  an institution is hiring you to educate its students. That is what they are PAYING you for.  

Actually, no. The main job of a university professor at a research university is to conduct research. There are still states and private donors who realize that and devote resources for that purpose. The scenario you are describing fits 4/4 schools, or even SLACs with 3/3, that's true. I love teaching, don't get me wrong, but I still think my main purpose is to create knowledge. That is what differentiates me from the average intellectual who reads books and knows what's going on in the world. That is what gives me the right to educate others. If you can do that with a 4/4 teaching load, as lizzy and others apparently can, that's good. I just don't think I'd be able to work in such an environment.

Yes, AT AN R1, the main job is research. Everywhere else (which, btw, encompasses 90% or more of the colleges and universities in the US), the main job is teaching. At regional comprehensives, the two parts are roughly equal. To get a job at an R1, you had better be a supernova. Not just a superstar, because the superstars are struggling to get jobs in this economy, but a real, live supernova--a star so bright that schools are asking you to apply instead just advertising their positions and hoping you'll apply. If that isn't you, you might want to re-examine your options.

Also, you'd be wise to remember that no one cares how much you know if you can't disseminate the information. Writing for the 150 others in your subfield may be fulfilling to you, but the students attending your institution want to be able to learn about your field--even if only to complete the general education requirement. If you can't teach them, how have you helped your discipline? By chasing students away from the field? Good teaching is the recruiting mechanism by which we get students to study our disciplines, in both upper-division courses and in graduate school. Don't let anyone kid you about that.

[zupixx]

Thanks, cgfunmathguy and anthroid, for giving me some food for thought.

Your posts raise broader questions about the actual purpose of higher education. Sure, knowledge is meaningless if it is not disseminated. I may be wrong, but what I read between the lines of your posts is that how higher ed works in the US is the only way to get that knowledge to so many people. That may be true, but of course, one has to wonder if there is indeed a need to enroll so many people in universities and colleges. I don't know where I stand on this point, but that is probably a topic for a different thread.