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[antiphon1]

It would seem cruel and unusual to make one student read another student's gibberish out loud, for everyone involved.

Peer editing is amazingly effective.  You can always break the class into small groups for the readings to preserve the dignity and sanity of the class.

In my experience, peer editing is amazingly effective if:

a) students take it seriously instead of as another instance of "busy work"
b) students have the ability to give and receive constructive criticism
c) students are close enough in ability that all can benefit from the exchange
d) students believe that their fellow students have enough ability to make constructive comments

and

most importantly
e) students want to improve instead of simply get a higher grade for doing the same thing next time.

True.  Some classes can handle the peer editing exercises on the first try and some cannot.  I scaffold the editing process across several assignments rather than attempting to have the students correct all the errors the first time they edit another student's work.  The first editing assignment may focus strictly on content, the second assignment adds structure, the third adds grammar, etc...  Breaking the editing into progressive activities helps prevent the students from becoming overwhelmed with the errors and giving up. 

[polly_mer]

It would seem cruel and unusual to make one student read another student's gibberish out loud, for everyone involved.

Peer editing is amazingly effective.  You can always break the class into small groups for the readings to preserve the dignity and sanity of the class.

In my experience, peer editing is amazingly effective if:

a) students take it seriously instead of as another instance of "busy work"
b) students have the ability to give and receive constructive criticism
c) students are close enough in ability that all can benefit from the exchange
d) students believe that their fellow students have enough ability to make constructive comments

and

most importantly
e) students want to improve instead of simply get a higher grade for doing the same thing next time.

True.  Some classes can handle the peer editing exercises on the first try and some cannot.  I scaffold the editing process across several assignments rather than attempting to have the students correct all the errors the first time they edit another student's work.  The first editing assignment may focus strictly on content, the second assignment adds structure, the third adds grammar, etc...  Breaking the editing into progressive activities helps prevent the students from becoming overwhelmed with the errors and giving up. 

Yes, and that's exactly why peer review as a process is not something I will be trying with this class because I'm not trying to teach composition and logic and writing and all the other goodies that educated people must know.  I just want something somewhat intelligible so that we can do the freakin' math and talk about why people need math beyond "they said I had to have three credits and I already took college algebra six times and failed" (true reason given by one of these students).

[yatchie]

A goodish response runs along the lines of:

Myself being a smart indivdual, the lottery no godd.  Poker you have a 5/52 change of win, but lottery has no winner most time unless you win big because you spend 1 or 5 dollars to get powerball.  Then it worth it because you won.  But most time you lost and got no money.  Poker fun because people together and fun even don't win lots or even lost lots.

Even then, there's nothing about the expectation values (a huge point in this unit and something that has been hammered repeatedly), the probability of winning at poker is just plain wrong, and I don't see any mathematical arguments other than "most of the time you lose", which, while true, doesn't draw on any of the ways to calculate and estimate probability to make decisions that we have been working on.

I am reluctant to hammer at a person who writes something like this because it at least shows some thought about the topic (unlike the posts with this level of writing that ramble on about the whether or car recks or mean peeople hurtsing chances), but I can't see a way to have a reasonable discussion if I just have a string of these posts that all agree with each other that poker is fun because it's people together while the lottery is bad because it's just picking some numbers.

I teach math too, and English skills aside, I think that students just don't get the logic behind arguments.  I know that in my area, only algebra 1 is required to graduate high school, no geometry is needed. Geometry is not taught in college either, so students don't learn logic, at least in math.  It's really hard to teach students, even my STEM majors, how to determine if their given facts meet the _criteria_ of X, given the definition.   Now I spend a ton of time on dissecting definitions and identifying criteria needed to be categorized as X.  It helps, but I still get lines of reasoning along the lines of what's quoted above as justification.

This is really hard to teach.  On the one hand, there is an "accepted" way to justify an answer logically, so I give examples.  But students want a "template" to just plug in their answers to without really thinking.  Of course, it really doesn't work so well.

I don't know what to tell you except that I feel your pain.  I have a hard enough time teaching this in a daily face-to-face class, I have no idea how I would even begin to do it in an online class.   I mean, I spent an hour with my algebra II class last semester trying to identify if some given numbers were in scientific notation or not.  That was after spending twenty minutes dissecting the criteria that needed to be met based on the definition of scientific notation.  And yes, 90% of this class were native speakers.

[polly_mer]

I don't know what to tell you except that I feel your pain.  I have a hard enough time teaching this in a daily face-to-face class, I have no idea how I would even begin to do it in an online class.   I mean, I spent an hour with my algebra II class last semester trying to identify if some given numbers were in scientific notation or not.  That was after spending twenty minutes dissecting the criteria that needed to be met based on the definition of scientific notation.  And yes, 90% of this class were native speakers.

After meetings with several administrators and faculty supervisors above me about the fact that this class was a trainwreck in the hybrid format, I've made a huge change in the online discussions.  As an experiment this week, the online discussions are basically help sessions on the homework and quiz problems while in-class had the discussion on what the math meant.  There's been less participation in those online discussions, but I think they have been more useful to students.  We'll see what next week brings and who actually managed to finish the homework with online help.

I am not surprised at your experience with scientific notation.  In my science for teachers classes, it usually takes the better part of a week (roughly 4 hours in class with my help) before most of the class is capable of identifying scientific notation and putting numbers in scientific notation best 9 out of 10 tries.  It's math so it's hard so no one wants to try.

[vccoc]

Let me back up and explain what I thought the discussion board would do so that I can get more targeted suggestions.

I am definitely not, not, not teaching the math part through online discussion.  The way I had set up the class is:

1) Tuesday night we meet face-to-face for an hour and a half.  Homework from the past week is due, but homework is graded on a tried/not tried so that students will come ready with their questions so that I can answer them.  I do examples on the board and set up the next week's work.  Students work in small groups to reinforce the ideas and we run like a normal math class.

2) I post online links to some math sites with relevant activities so that students get immediate feedback for their practice during the week.  I also point out some sites with other ways to approach the problems because, even though our book is good, it's not the only way.

3) The quizzes are mostly math, but they do include some of the "have you done the reading?  Are you studying enough?" prompts because they are open-book, take-them-until-you-are-happy-with-the-grade-or-the-week-is-over quizzes.  The quizzes act primarily as ways to get the students to do some problems and get yes/no feedback instead of blowing it all off.

4) The discussion posts were supposed to be prompts to get students to reflect on how what we are learning in class relates to things outside of class and make those broader connections.  Their first post is due in lieu of attending a class on Thursday and they then have a week on which to comment/discuss other people's posts.  This is not supposed to be deep math or wrestling with the weighty math part, but more a slap-to-the-forehead of "Hey, yeah, we do have to know how to ask about sample size and selection bias when reading the newspaper touting the latest "scientific" study showing that eggs/alcohol/sugar are good/bad for you.  Yeah, we do have to be able to establish whether a population is likely to be normally distributed so that the mean should be reported or whether a mode is a more reasonable average."  Thus, while I didn't expect anyone to give a breakdown of probability of winning the powerball (one student did go to that trouble) or a winning poker hand (our book has a great chart on this), I did expect most people to point out in some way that math was involved and perhaps mention that one could use an expectation value to firm up the intuitive notion of lots of losers/few winners.

With that idea of posts being primarily for students to write short essays on "how we use math in 'real' life" and commentary on other people's essays, do your forumites have suggestions on what I can do in addition to more modeling to get better posts and hope that the ideas will come if I keep holding the line on grammar and writing mechanics?

[vccoc]

Let me back up and explain what I thought the discussion board would do so that I can get more targeted suggestions.

I am definitely not, not, not teaching the math part through online discussion.  The way I had set up the class is:

1) Tuesday night we meet face-to-face for an hour and a half.  Homework from the past week is due, but homework is graded on a tried/not tried so that students will come ready with their questions so that I can answer them.  I do examples on the board and set up the next week's work.  Students work in small groups to reinforce the ideas and we run like a normal math class.

2) I post online links to some math sites with relevant activities so that students get immediate feedback for their practice during the week.  I also point out some sites with other ways to approach the problems because, even though our book is good, it's not the only way.

3) The quizzes are mostly math, but they do include some of the "have you done the reading?  Are you studying enough?" prompts because they are open-book, take-them-until-you-are-happy-with-the-grade-or-the-week-is-over quizzes.  The quizzes act primarily as ways to get the students to do some problems and get yes/no feedback instead of blowing it all off.

4) The discussion posts were supposed to be prompts to get students to reflect on how what we are learning in class relates to things outside of class and make those broader connections.  Their first post is due in lieu of attending a class on Thursday and they then have a week on which to comment/discuss other people's posts.  This is not supposed to be deep math or wrestling with the weighty math part, but more a slap-to-the-forehead of "Hey, yeah, we do have to know how to ask about sample size and selection bias when reading the newspaper touting the latest "scientific" study showing that eggs/alcohol/sugar are good/bad for you.  Yeah, we do have to be able to establish whether a population is likely to be normally distributed so that the mean should be reported or whether a mode is a more reasonable average."  Thus, while I didn't expect anyone to give a breakdown of probability of winning the powerball (one student did go to that trouble) or a winning poker hand (our book has a great chart on this), I did expect most people to point out in some way that math was involved and perhaps mention that one could use an expectation value to firm up the intuitive notion of lots of losers/few winners.

With that idea of posts being primarily for students to write short essays on "how we use math in 'real' life" and commentary on other people's essays, do your forumites have suggestions on what I can do in addition to more modeling to get better posts and hope that the ideas will come if I keep holding the line on grammar and writing mechanics?

Let me back up and explain what I thought the discussion board would do so that I can get more targeted suggestions.

I am definitely not, not, not teaching the math part through online discussion.  The way I had set up the class is:

1) Tuesday night we meet face-to-face for an hour and a half.  Homework from the past week is due, but homework is graded on a tried/not tried so that students will come ready with their questions so that I can answer them.  I do examples on the board and set up the next week's work.  Students work in small groups to reinforce the ideas and we run like a normal math class.

2) I post online links to some math sites with relevant activities so that students get immediate feedback for their practice during the week.  I also point out some sites with other ways to approach the problems because, even though our book is good, it's not the only way.

3) The quizzes are mostly math, but they do include some of the "have you done the reading?  Are you studying enough?" prompts because they are open-book, take-them-until-you-are-happy-with-the-grade-or-the-week-is-over quizzes.  The quizzes act primarily as ways to get the students to do some problems and get yes/no feedback instead of blowing it all off.

4) The discussion posts were supposed to be prompts to get students to reflect on how what we are learning in class relates to things outside of class and make those broader connections.  Their first post is due in lieu of attending a class on Thursday and they then have a week on which to comment/discuss other people's posts.  This is not supposed to be deep math or wrestling with the weighty math part, but more a slap-to-the-forehead of "Hey, yeah, we do have to know how to ask about sample size and selection bias when reading the newspaper touting the latest "scientific" study showing that eggs/alcohol/sugar are good/bad for you.  Yeah, we do have to be able to establish whether a population is likely to be normally distributed so that the mean should be reported or whether a mode is a more reasonable average."  Thus, while I didn't expect anyone to give a breakdown of probability of winning the powerball (one student did go to that trouble) or a winning poker hand (our book has a great chart on this), I did expect most people to point out in some way that math was involved and perhaps mention that one could use an expectation value to firm up the intuitive notion of lots of losers/few winners.

With that idea of posts being primarily for students to write short essays on "how we use math in 'real' life" and commentary on other people's essays, do your forumites have suggestions on what I can do in addition to more modeling to get better posts and hope that the ideas will come if I keep holding the line on grammar and writing mechanics?

[bioteacher]

Vccoc,

You seem to be struggling with the quote function. I cannot figure out what new comments (if any) you are adding. For now, it might be best to avoid the quote function and just address your reply to a previous poster. In this case, you could say, "Polly, have you tried......." and we'll all be able to follow you a lot better.

Since you are so new to the fora, and an unfortunate percentage of new posters are spammers, this quote-free approach will serve you well until you get established as a regular contributor.

Welcome.

Bioteacher

[parispundit]

" It's math so it's hard so no one wants to try." Polly Mer

And this is in a science for teachers class? These people will teach our children? Give 'em a lecture about how if they don't try themselves because something is hard, how can they expect the children they teach to try hard?

And if that doesn't work, I recommend emigration.

[polly_mer]

" It's math so it's hard so no one wants to try." Polly Mer

And this is in a science for teachers class? These people will teach our children? Give 'em a lecture about how if they don't try themselves because something is hard, how can they expect the children they teach to try hard?

This particular class was a statistics class to fulfill general education requirements, not one of my science for teachers classes.  However, I gave the same lecture on trying and not buying the malarky that math is too hard for regular people along with examples where a little feel for math pays huge dividends in the world outside of school.  By the end of the semester, many students were on board and more than 50% of this class passed, which is similar to non-hybrid classes of this level math.

[the_honey_badger]

For the some of the errors I seen in the samples.  Demand that they *read aloud* whatever they post before they post it. That cuts down on the "things that would make no sense in conversation" prose.  Tell them that reading silently causes them to "read what should be there instead of what is there" and that only by reading out loud will them "hear" their structural mistakes.  I insist that my humanities students do the same for drafts of essays and the number of incoherent assignments has declined enormously----they learn quickly that if they don't do it, their scores will be very low.  My view is "you can have good ideas but if you can't communicate them, then there is no argument at all in that paper."

The thing is that even the most marginal readers usually speak better than they write.  If they literally hear themselves, they'll be forced to attend to errors that make their answers downright incoherent.

[polly_mer]

For the some of the errors I seen in the samples.  Demand that they *read aloud* whatever they post before they post it. That cuts down on the "things that would make no sense in conversation" prose.  Tell them that reading silently causes them to "read what should be there instead of what is there" and that only by reading out loud will them "hear" their structural mistakes.  I insist that my humanities students do the same for drafts of essays and the number of incoherent assignments has declined enormously----they learn quickly that if they don't do it, their scores will be very low.  My view is "you can have good ideas but if you can't communicate them, then there is no argument at all in that paper."

The thing is that even the most marginal readers usually speak better than they write.  If they literally hear themselves, they'll be forced to attend to errors that make their answers downright incoherent.

People have suggested this.  I have tried this.  My students often don't read what is on the paper.  They read what they want to read and then get mad when I tell them that what they said is not what they wrote.

[the_honey_badger]

For the some of the errors I seen in the samples.  Demand that they *read aloud* whatever they post before they post it. That cuts down on the "things that would make no sense in conversation" prose.  Tell them that reading silently causes them to "read what should be there instead of what is there" and that only by reading out loud will them "hear" their structural mistakes.  I insist that my humanities students do the same for drafts of essays and the number of incoherent assignments has declined enormously----they learn quickly that if they don't do it, their scores will be very low.  My view is "you can have good ideas but if you can't communicate them, then there is no argument at all in that paper."

The thing is that even the most marginal readers usually speak better than they write.  If they literally hear themselves, they'll be forced to attend to errors that make their answers downright incoherent.

People have suggested this.  I have tried this.  My students often don't read what is on the paper.  They read what they want to read and then get mad when I tell them that what they said is not what they wrote.

Ah, so my low end students from the low end Intro courses migrate over to your place after I "brutalize" them. I'll leave this to the Ed/Comp experts then. I will admit I had not read all the long posts on this thread but only your original.  I have, in the past, been reduced in an on-line course where the system rules were essentially: are they alive and fees are paid? Then they should pass if they hand in anything at all"   to using the standard that if I could wrestle anything resembling "acquaintance" with the topic they passed.  (i.e. if they get the *words* "Pilgrim, religion, colony, America" rather than "Pilgrim, atomic bomb, Abe Lincoln" in reasonable proximity I gave them credit!)

[polly_mer]

For the some of the errors I seen in the samples.  Demand that they *read aloud* whatever they post before they post it. That cuts down on the "things that would make no sense in conversation" prose.  Tell them that reading silently causes them to "read what should be there instead of what is there" and that only by reading out loud will them "hear" their structural mistakes.  I insist that my humanities students do the same for drafts of essays and the number of incoherent assignments has declined enormously----they learn quickly that if they don't do it, their scores will be very low.  My view is "you can have good ideas but if you can't communicate them, then there is no argument at all in that paper."

The thing is that even the most marginal readers usually speak better than they write.  If they literally hear themselves, they'll be forced to attend to errors that make their answers downright incoherent.

People have suggested this.  I have tried this.  My students often don't read what is on the paper.  They read what they want to read and then get mad when I tell them that what they said is not what they wrote.

Ah, so my low end students from the low end Intro courses migrate over to your place after I "brutalize" them. I'll leave this to the Ed/Comp experts then. I will admit I had not read all the long posts on this thread but only your original.  I have, in the past, been reduced in an on-line course where the system rules were essentially: are they alive and fees are paid? Then they should pass if they hand in anything at all"   to using the standard that if I could wrestle anything resembling "acquaintance" with the topic they passed.  (i.e. if they get the *words* "Pilgrim, religion, colony, America" rather than "Pilgrim, atomic bomb, Abe Lincoln" in reasonable proximity I gave them credit!)

What I learned from this experience is that I will not again agree to teach a class like these (I actually did two of them this fall) for this student population online or even partially online.  These students just need too much help in many areas for the online delivery to be helping them.

I may be persuaded to teach an upper-level class online or an online class for a different population of students, but I flatly turned down the offer to teach similar classes like this in the spring.  Face-to-face with a lot of personal interaction for remediation and nagging guidance in adopting good student practices is necessary for these students to help them succeed.

[spork]

It would seem cruel and unusual to make one student read another student's gibberish out loud, for everyone involved.

Why?

If you are hiring for an open position, are you going to hire someone who can't write a simple sentence?