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[ptarmigan]

The thread about pontificators gone wild prompted me to post this.  I'm going to try to ask this question while being careful what I say about others in my program.

One of my courses (a lecture course) has about 20 students.  The professor presents proofs and concepts on the board in the standard manner of a math course.  Out of the 20 of us, just about three of us actually speak up - we answer his questions (which may or may not be rhetorical in some cases), ask our own questions, and challenge him when we think he's got something wrong.  (We are often correct and he always acknowledges it when we are, but of course we are sometimes mistaken.)  I'd say 95% of utterances by students in this class come from us three.

I am used to the math presented by professors being either more flawless or more incomprehensible, but I partly appreciate that I'm really engaged in the boardwork by virtue of its being more uncertain and collaborative.  I am certainly thinking more than I would be if the math appeared to be handed down from on high.  At the same time, I wonder if we're annoying the dickens out of the prof and/or our classmates.  Most of them are completely silent the entire class, which feels strange to me.  The professor hasn't shown any signs of being annoyed by us - he's very gracious and generally welcoming of our comments - but I still wonder.  If he were a friend or someone I felt very comfortable with, I would just ask him, "Hey, is it annoying that I interrrupt you so much?  Should I pipe down more?"  But I'd rather not seem like a freak in need of constant reassurance about basic human interactions, and we haven't really spoken outside of class.

Does it sound like I'm behaving inappropriately?  

[larryc]

Yes you are. STFU for a few days and see what happens.

[dellaroux]

Or maybe the prof is making mistakes on purpose to see if anyone's awake...

[curiouscortex]

Try looking around the classroom the next time one of you speaks up and it causes the professor to stop and reconsider or backtrack for a few minutes.  If your classmates look interested, you're probably fine.  If they look bored or frustrated, you probably will want to cut back. 
I've been in classes where I was struggling to keep up with the professor's pace and wasn't able to ask questions or participate in the lecture because I was so overwhelmed.  I always appreciated when my classmates could see a problem or ask for clarification in those cases.  I've also had classes where some of the slower students decided that it was their job to constantly correct the professor (and only 1 in 10 of their comments had any value).  That got to be annoying really quickly.

[obprof]

When I've taught similar classes, I've always been happy when students ask questions. It's always hard to tell if the material is sinking in or not. I can never tell if the students are quiet because they are bored because they know all this already and it is super obvious OR if they are quiet because they are lost and don't know what I am talking about anymore.

This is especially a problem when there are variations in the level of preparation (different academic backgrounds) and when the students think that they are supposed to already know everything.

One thing, though: does the prof ever say something like "let's talk about this after class"? If so, that might be a gentle way of saying that your questions are off-topic and not really helping.

If you like, you could stop by their office, and tell them how much you are learning and how much you like the class... and then ask them if they would rather if you saved up your questions to ask during break / during office hours. See what they say.

[ptarmigan]

When I've taught similar classes, I've always been happy when students ask questions. It's always hard to tell if the material is sinking in or not. I can never tell if the students are quiet because they are bored because they know all this already and it is super obvious OR if they are quiet because they are lost and don't know what I am talking about anymore.

This is especially a problem when there are variations in the level of preparation (different academic backgrounds) and when the students think that they are supposed to already know everything.

One thing, though: does the prof ever say something like "let's talk about this after class"? If so, that might be a gentle way of saying that your questions are off-topic and not really helping.

If you like, you could stop by their office, and tell them how much you are learning and how much you like the class... and then ask them if they would rather if you saved up your questions to ask during break / during office hours. See what they say.

He never does, actually, say anything like that at all.  It's usually, "That's a good question," or, "That's a good point" or an explanation or he corrects something that he wrote.  Occasionally (not in response to me, but to one of the others), "Just a moment, we're getting there."

I'm going to try sitting further back in the classroom next week and STFU'ing (S'ing TFU?) and see what happens.

[verde]

I can identify with this. I've had the same concerns about classmates' silence, and have played around with monitoring my own turns of talk-- intentionally not opening my mouth as soon as I have something to say or every time I have something to say, to make sure that other people have the chance. Part of this is informed by comments that have been made here. This board, obviously, tends toward the extreme, so these discussions tend to involve the characterization of the person in your shoes as both overly enamored with her/his own ideas and so socially retarded as to be incapable of perceiving the exasperation of everyone else in the room, but aside from that, I've gotten some helpful perspective from comments made by people who report that either they're dealing with a higher level of communicative apprehension generally and need to work up the nerve to speak, or that they just need a little more time to solidify their ideas before feeling comfortable with talking. Part of being a considerate member of my community is making room for that.

But--knowing that I do monitor this, and that I and other students who regularly speak up are not receiving STFU signals from our professors, I actually find the lack of participation more obnoxious, especially because I'm in a field where classes are very discussion-oriented and thus tend to become painful and boring when there is no discussion. (My perspective when running classes has always been similar.) I don't think it's apathy, or even lack of preparation in most cases (although that certainly happens); my best guess is that apprehension is just higher for a lot of people in these settings because they perceive their egos or reputations as being on the line. And that's a shame. Part of my motivation for coming to grad school was to be in an environment where I could learn from and with the people around me, including fellow students. Ultimately, though, there's only so much I, or you, can do about how other people choose to engage (or not). I'd avoid wasting too much thought or emotional energy on this.

[polly_mer]

Without getting to see you in action, I don't know whether you are being obnoxious or whether you are being active participants in a class with a bunch of potted plants.

As others have written, you have to look at the professor and the other students to get a read.

Lots of "That's a good question" or "Yep, caught me on that one" with a lot of writing and enthusiasm means that you are likely being a joy.

The occasional "I'm getting to that.  Patience." is nothing to be concerned about as long as the professor is still mostly enthusiastic about the material and it is occasional.

If, however, you can see the mental sighs and the frozen smile as the professor again says, "What?  What is your question?" with the implicit "this time...oh.my.god.is.it.over.yet?" for the fifth time in eight minutes or you can see the restraint as the professor tries to keep from slapping hand to the forehead, then, yeah, you are being obnoxious.  A lot of "let's discuss that after class or in office hours" indicates you are being obnoxious.

I have classes that go both ways and I can tell you that the vibe in the room from the enthusiastic question askers who are asking great questions to contribute to a lively discussion is completely different from the somebody-tie-that-student's-hand-down-because-there-will-be-no-more-questions-this-semester-from-that-corner vibe.  You can't always trust the vibe from the other students because some of those slackers only want a dry lecture to memorize, but you can always trust the vibe from the professor.

[ptarmigan]

I'm reasonably sure that the vibe from the professor is good.  I have literally never gotten a "let's discuss that later" type of response.  In a way the class is a weird kind of challenge for me, though, because I would actually prefer it to be more of a straight-up lecture, and it's structured like one, but it doesn't turn out to be one.  I feel like if I don't speak up, the lecture won't actually go as well, but that's what I'll try to test by not talking next week.  If student participation is actually required in order to make it work, then I guess other people can start participating.

[benchmark]

Not sure I agree with S'ing TFU. It's the prof's job to try and get the potted plants to participate or to try and get the three of you to pipe down if necessary. The prof should be worrying about getting balanced participation from the class (or no participation if none is required) and not leaving the good/active students to try and assess or remedy the situation. My guess is that you are NOT being obnoxious, or you would have noticed clear signals (since you are on the alert and are conscious that there may be a problem). But you definitely have a prof who's not in control. That's not your fault. If the three of you have questions and comments to make you should go right ahead and make them (I only say this since you are clearly on the alert for how other students are responding - I would not say this if you were all bull-headed and ...well, obnoxious).

In my classes I sometimes let the good/active students dominate, but not for too long. I wouldn't let it go on for class after class, but nor do I always shut good people down just because the potted plants have nothing to say. But I really think this is the prof's role and not yours.

[advil]

Yes you are. STFU for a few days and see what happens.

I don't agree, or rather I don't think it is necessarily so obvious.  The description is similar enough to a class that I'm teaching right now that I started wondering if it was that class (I think not, since more than 3 people talk at least sometimes), and I would like to figure out a way to get more, rather than less, students to participate.

[scampster]

In my classes I sometimes let the good/active students dominate, but not for too long. I wouldn't let it go on for class after class, but nor do I always shut good people down just because the potted plants have nothing to say. But I really think this is the prof's role and not yours.

Ptarmigan can correct me if I am wrong, but I think there is a difference between dominating a discussion in a math class versus a class that is traditionally more discussion based. My impression is that Ptarmigan and these other two students pipe up frequently with questions or comments while the professor is working at the board, not in response to the professor trying to foster discussion. I don't think Ptarmigan is being obnoxious by doing this, although it might be that the other students have similar questions but just don't think as quickly (or spend more time thinking before opening their mouths). Is it Ptarmigan's responsibility to draw back so that they have a chance to bring up points or questions? No, but at the same time if she does, she can see if they actually have things to contribute in class and are intimidated or if they really just prefer not to interrupt in class. Is there a split based on nationality amongst the students who speak up and those who don't? I find North Americans, Europeans, Russians, etc more likely to point out mistakes than some of the quieter Asian students in my class.

[benchmark]

Ah, you're right, scampster, I was thinking of a discussion-based class.

But even in this context I don't think there's a duty to draw back and let others talk - such a duty would arise only if these three were talking endlessly so that nobody could get a word in even if they wanted to, or jumping in immediately the prof asks a question so that nobody else has a chance. Here it sounds like anyone could ask questions if they wanted to. If they come from a shy or reticent culture I don't think the other students should worry about that (the prof should, though).

I don't think students should worry that they're asking too many questions. That's for the prof to control, depending on the needs of the class. I know a prof (very distinguished) who said 'I very much welcome questions and interruptions, so if you have something very important to say which will impress the entire class with its brilliance please feel free to just interrupt me'. Nobody dared interrupt.

[ptarmigan]

Advil, based on your other posts, you're not my professor. Whew.  (That would be funny, actually.)

[polly_mer]

Advil, based on your other posts, you're not my professor. Whew.  (That would be funny, actually.)

Since you are a woman, Ptarmigan, I didn't even bother to ask if you were in my class since it's pretty obvious you are not, but this is exactly how my upperlevel class is going.  It's not a discussion-based class, but it's a lot more interesting all around when students take part so that we have a lively intellectual group exchange instead of just me lecturing, asking a question, getting a direct response, and then returning to lecture before doing small group problem solving.  That was my experience as an upperclass/graduate student in classes of 10 or fewer people (i.e., almost all of them) and that's the kind of class I love.