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[voxprincipalis]

With only one exception, you can see that you've just proven the OP's point, right?

The OP's criticism of some high profile individuals on the fora is accurate IMHO. You don't need a graduate level degree to see that, and what's saddest about it is that based on the responses to this thread, nobody is willing to address the real problem: that new members who post looking for succor of some sort often end up embarrassed, ridiculed, and shamed by far too many crusty old timers whose behavior truly is far more reminiscent of the grammar school playground than any denizen of adulthood.

Criticizing OP because hu does not yet have as many pieces of ultimately worthless paper as you do belies the truth  of OP's statements, and does not change the fact that these fora can be a very unfriendly place for the  "unpopular" kids. This is reality, folks, and for the good of the fora, it ought to be faced.

1. Nice edit, there.

2. Similarly, much of the content of what is said to people who ask questions that reveal they don't know what they're talking about, or who have untenable plans or unrealistic expectations of academia, regardless of whether they are new or veteran posters or how many pieces of paper they do or don't have, is one version of "reality," which you agree should be faced. For everything else, we have the Validation Thread, and if all you want is a cookie and a pat on the head, it's down the hall to the left.

3. Let me repeat the following important bit of what I just said: regardless of whether they are new or veteran posters or how many pieces of paper they do or don't have. Anyone who has a crummy idea or unrealistic plan gets told in no uncertain terms that it's a crummy idea or an unrealistic plan. That new members seemingly tend to have these more often speaks not to their new-ness to the fora, but to academic life. There are plenty of new members who come onboard and make sage posts from the beginning of their tenure (I was noticing two or three the other day), and they generally don't seem to have trouble. It's the ones who say "You are not validating everything I want to do and you are not covering your words with cotton candy and rainbows!" who have trouble. It's amazing how much you can learn if you lurk before posting and read without silent expectations of how others are to behave.

4. Who joins a community to tell them all they're a bunch of meanies? Really? Who does that? And what does that say about this person's understanding of community, and norms, and how to make friends and influence people? Grad school is going to be a rocky road for that poster, and everyone here knows it.

VP

[sagit]

....didn't want to bother given the predictable "yellowtractor" responses.

Congrats Yellowtractor!  You have your own genre of responses!  Well done :)

[sagit]

Good points Vox.  Honestly, if someone can't make it in these fora, I'm not sure how they expect to make it in academia.  Maybe write nasty letters to editors for rejecting their articles?

[tuxthepenguin]

For everything else, we have the Validation Thread, and if all you want is a cookie and a pat on the head, it's down the hall to the left.

I didn't know we had that. Unfortunately it's limited to validation of legal actions. :(

[tinyzombie]

....didn't want to bother given the predictable "yellowtractor" responses.

Congrats Yellowtractor!  You have your own genre of responses!  Well done :)

I'm jealous.

[niceday]

There are two separate issues.

There are helpful people give useful but disappointing advice which may not always be well-received.

Then there clearly are people who obviously enjoy the piling on and often feel like they are entitled to speak on behalf of this community even though they are not its owners or its anointed spokespeople. Such people do come across as smug, judgmental and condescending.

So, newbies, there is useful advice and great people. You will need to ignore certain types. The smug and condescending types also tend to be high-profile, frequent posters which may lead a new person to think they dominate the Fora. They don't really --only certain portions of it--  but they do tend to be all over the place and will often be quick to pop up to put "someone in their place."

My guess is anyone who has this kind of pattern of posting is probably here a lot because they probably can't get away with such crap in the offline world where they would be shunned for such immaturity.

Of course, some new people also display immature reactions to being told fairly common wisdom. There are also many very nice people who will kindly point out what they have learned through experience in a way that is designed to be helpful rather than insulting.

[testingthewaters]

Good points Vox.  Honestly, if someone can't make it in these fora, I'm not sure how they expect to make it in academia.  Maybe write nasty letters to editors for rejecting their articles?

What, like this?

[wet_blanket]

I fully agree with the OP. I was going to post such a message myself, but didn't want to bother given the predictable "yellowtractor" responses.

That's why you made a sock?

Anyway, I think that the quotes from other threads the OP chose to make his/her case are telling, and support what niceday said.

The first quote, for example, says "you won't make much money once you're done."  I can't see what this thread's OP could possibly find objectionable about that, except that it wasn't what another OP wanted to hear.

The second part of the same quote, though, at face value (because I'm not going to go read the whole thread) does seem unnecessary and personal.

[electronicprof]

There are two separate issues.

There are helpful people give useful but disappointing advice which may not always be well-received.

Then there clearly are people who obviously enjoy the piling on and often feel like they are entitled to speak on behalf of this community even though they are not its owners or its anointed spokespeople. Such people do come across as smug, judgmental and condescending.

So, newbies, there is useful advice and great people. You will need to ignore certain types. The smug and condescending types also tend to be high-profile, frequent posters which may lead a new person to think they dominate the Fora. They don't really --only certain portions of it--  but they do tend to be all over the place and will often be quick to pop up to put "someone in their place."

My guess is anyone who has this kind of pattern of posting is probably here a lot because they probably can't get away with such crap in the offline world where they would be shunned for such immaturity.

Of course, some new people also display immature reactions to being told fairly common wisdom. There are also many very nice people who will kindly point out what they have learned through experience in a way that is designed to be helpful rather than insulting.

Chime. This is exactly what I was getting at.

[grasshopper]

3. Let me repeat the following important bit of what I just said: regardless of whether they are new or veteran posters or how many pieces of paper they do or don't have. Anyone who has a crummy idea or unrealistic plan gets told in no uncertain terms that it's a crummy idea or an unrealistic plan.

Oh, so true.

I'm a pretty regular poster. Remember back when I wanted that university department that was doing all that hiring to create a job just for me? And I'd been reading and contributing to these boards for years at that point.

Reality smackdown.

Then there clearly are people who obviously enjoy the piling on and often feel like they are entitled to speak on behalf of this community even though they are not its owners or its anointed spokespeople. Such people do come across as smug, judgmental and condescending.

You forgot the last type: those who fancy themselves as champions of the underdog, giving voice to the oppressed and marginalized.

You're not the first to emphasize this sentiment, Nice Day. Amnirov and Post Functional have also trumpeted this line. But here's the thing: you're wrong.

I know. Smug. Judgmental. Condescending. But true. You're wrong. And you know how I know that you're wrong? Because whenever someone goes all out with this argument, quoting decontextualized statement after decontextualized statement, only a handful of people agree with them.

If so many people feel marginalized by the Dirty Fora Dozen, who control these boards with a vast and sweeping arm of condescension, then why don't the masses rise up and join you in a chorus of rebellion? I'll tell you why: because they don't agree with you.

Just because you and a handful of other people don't like the community norms here doesn't mean that vast numbers of newbies are turned away at the gate, or that there is some silent majority here who are simply putting up with the dominating ways of The Clique That Isn't a Clique because they're afraid of being ostracized or piled upon.

We're all free to disagree with the general consensus - which is generally what these "self-appointed voices of the community" are saying, by the way. I've disagreed in the past. You probably have, too. Everyone has as some point or another. But that doesn't mean that the community norms themselves are problematic. It means that there's room for dissension.

We're also all free to dislike some of the common practices of the community. The example I keep coming back to is the trend last year to hijack threads by talking about food. Damn, that annoyed me. And I voiced that annoyance. But guess what? A lot of people weren't annoyed by it. More people enjoyed it than wanted it to stop. So it continued. Just because I disliked it doesn't mean that the there's a problem with the community at large. It means that I was in the minority. That's all. The end.

Community norms can't be imposed by a select few. They have to be upheld by the community at large. Just because you only see a handful of people touting these norms to newbies doesn't mean that they're the only ones who see the value in them. If the community at large didn't find the norms useful, then those norms wouldn't be norms. Community norms would be something else.

[electronicprof]

And you know how I know that you're wrong? Because whenever someone goes all out with this argument, quoting decontextualized statement after decontextualized statement, only a handful of people agree with them.


So because the majority of the German population circa 1933-42 didn't openly disagree with Hitler, they all agreed with him?

Your defensiveness speaks volumes, Grasshopper. Having read many of your posts, I'm not surprised in the least.

[grasshopper]

And you know how I know that you're wrong? Because whenever someone goes all out with this argument, quoting decontextualized statement after decontextualized statement, only a handful of people agree with them.


So because the majority of the German population circa 1933-42 didn't openly disagree with Hitler, they all agreed with him?

Your defensiveness speaks volumes, Grasshopper. Having read many of your posts, I'm not surprised in the least.

Did you read the one where I wrote that in order to quote, you just have to click on the "quote" icon in the top right hand corner?


Also, HITLER!

[menotti]

I have to say, when I've noticed a pile-on, it's almost always been for a personal issue.  When people ask about professional issues, there may be unanimity of disdainful opinion, but it doesn't usually seem snarky or malicious.

[electronicprof]

Did you read the one where I wrote that in order to quote, you just have to click on the "quote" icon in the top right hand corner?

I'm so sorry for offending your sensibilities. How dare I flout community standards by NOT HITTING THE QUOTE BUTTON! Bad newbie! Bad! Oh, but I understand your need to counsel me thus. You can't argue the point I raised, so instead, you're going to attack me. Textbook, that. Are you going to tell me that I smell next?

You are proving the OP's point beautifully. Keep it up.

[tuxthepenguin]

The thing we have to keep in mind is that this is the only place to post something on the internet. If there were alternatives, I'd agree that this forum should do as it wishes.