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[snowbound]

This is the worst class I've ever taught.  There's always those two or three students who are engaged, smart, analytical--they are the yeast that makes the whole class rise.  Well, this 20-person online summer class, I've got zilch!  How can you conduct an online discussion on literary texts, when there is NO ONE who is willing to move beyond describing the plot or characters or sharing their personal experiences or views!

Case in point: We're discussing a children's novel that deals with resisting racism and was written in Civil Rights movement era.  I've been talking about (among other things) how it participates in some of the debates that were going on within the civil rights movement at the time. I ask whether it has an MLK or Malcolm X perspective on whether violence is ever morally justified (explaining very briefly those two opposing viewpoints). I've taught this novel many times (including online) and students always figure out that the novel (like Malcolm X) suggests that, if all else fails, violence in pursuit of justice is indeed morally justified.  Which is a pretty surprising thing in a children's novel.

Most of my students don't want to commit themselves any further than to observe: Some characters use violent means and some use non-violent means. When I remind them of the discussion question, they all agree that the novel endorses both strategies.  But the strategies are incompatible, I explain. Does the novel suggest violence is sometimes justifiable, or that is is NEVER justifiable?  Both, they repeat, ignoring the logic that "sometimes" and "never" are incompatible, and totally unwilling to do even the most rudimentary and simple and obvious analysis of what the novel is implying.  The only time anyone will actually get off the fence is when they give their own personal opinion that violence is always wrong.  OK, but their own personal view on this is not what we're studying.  What is THE NOVEL saying?  My students usually like and are moved by this novel, and are willing to think seriously about it as a literary text.  But not this bunch!

This is but one example of the generally braindead condition of this entire class, on every text we've discussed.  Occasionally one of the OK (as distinct from poor) students will make a fairly perceptive comment about some detail.  Invariably, the next half dozen students will repeat what she has said, without adding one iota of their own thoughts. Or I'll talk about word-play in Alice in Wonderland, using one page as an example, and all the comments will be about that one page, never any other example in the whole book!

The last time I taught this class online, the discussion was MUCH better, as I had a few live wires. But now I;m faced with either spelling out every single piece of analysis (bits of which which they will repeat on the final and their papers), or leaving them as ignorant as they were to start with. The thing is, with literature classes, the point is not to deliver content ("Here's the answer to what's going on in this paragraph"); it's to teach a skill ("Here's ways you can look at this paragraph to you can figure out what's going on in it") so that they can understand more deeply any text that they read. My students in this class are good at learning the former, and totally unwilling to stretch themselves by tackling the latter.

I'm basically just venting here.  But if anyone has any suggestions or words of wisdom, I'm certainly open for it.

[spork]

1) State in the syllabus that participation in online discussions is mandatory. Make it worth something like 20 percent of the final grade.

2) Post a discussion rubric the identifies the difference between irrelevant lower order descriptions and relevant higher order analysis that references the texts.

3) Assign points for participation as you see fit.  It will be obvious which students are thinking about the material and posting about their thinking.

[snowbound]

#1 -- I already do this.

#2 -- I haven't done this in the syllabus, but I've tried to do it in my interventions into the discussions.  They either ignore it or don't know what I'm on about.

#3 -- Yes, I think this is the only thing that will make them sit up and take notice.  The grades for this class are going to be way low.  Problem is this is punishing after the fact (it's just too much work, with 20 students, to grade participation on a weekly basis).  I think your #2 suggestion about the syllabus may help next time.  Maybe I need to lay out a clear rubric for the quality of participation I'm expecting. IT's not just how many times you post; it's how much you are trying to engage with the text and the topics under discussion. 

[bioteacher]

Can you access old class discussions? Maybe this brain dead group just doesn't know what a real discussion is supposed to look like. I'm grasping at straws here, but it's possible... unlikely but possible.

You can take the first 5 posts out of one discussion thread, remove all identifying information, then post it as an example. Add a few lame posts to show the contrast. Tell them you want this discussion to be continued.

Maybe this concrete example, in conjunction with some commentary by you on what contributions are good and why, which posts are lame and why, and what you expect them to do from here on in.

Good luck. Some times you just get a toxic mix of students and you end up talking to the wall. I hope your gang gets a clue and shapes up.

[larryc]

(it's just too much work, with 20 students, to grade participation on a weekly basis).

Normally I would agree, but I think you had better make the time and hand out a bunch of crappy "class participation to date" grades. Combine these with a class announcement that the students need to improve.

[spork]

(it's just too much work, with 20 students, to grade participation on a weekly basis).

Normally I would agree, but I think you had better make the time and hand out a bunch of crappy "class participation to date" grades. Combine these with a class announcement that the students need to improve.

Yes, write one email, change the name each time, and send it out.  Something to the effect of "performance to date = D due to a, b, and c."

[infopri]

Another alternative, if you can't do weekly participation grades, is to do a midsemester participation grade.  I know someone who did this every semester (whether overall class participation was good or not, just to provide students the with feedback), and the participation (overall) always improved in the second half of the semester.  A few students remained duds, sure, but for most of the class, the midsemester participation grade was a wake-up call.

[snowbound]

These are some great ideas.  Thanks, folks.

[catprof]

I sympathize!  One or two engaged, thoughtful students can make such a difference in an online (or any!) class discussion. 

I have no advice to offer other than to second the suggestion of posting strong responses from previous classes.  Consider making your prompts as provocative as possible (perhaps an "agree or disagree" and extreme position).  Maybe they'll provide a more nuanced analysis in their rebuttal.  On the other hand, maybe they'll agree to the extreme position, and you'll have to challenge those responses with counter-evidence.  Good luck, and take heart that it is almost over; maybe your classes will be better in the fall.  (Hope springs eternal . . . ).

By the way, what is the children's novel?

[marigolds]

Everybody else is right, and this is a dumb idea, but: what if you told them all to go watch "Do the Right Thing" and see if that helps them see that you can't have sometimes AND never at one time? Maybe that would wake them up and get them talking about what you want them to think through, which you could then graft into discussion of the same thematic in the novel and how weird it is that it's a kids' novel?

[snowbound]

Hey, Marigolds, this thread is a year old but your resuscitation of it is timely. In a couple of weeks, I'll be teaching the exact same online summer school class.  I;m hoping for a better bunch of students, and re-reading the thread reminds me of the suggestions--which I'll try to make use of.

[zharkov]

I have found that it is helpful to post participation points in the CMS every week or two.  And to email all the students when the gradebook has been updated.  The slackers will see that they are losing points, and may change their behavior.

[lotsoquestions]

For the next week or two, you might try ASSIGNING them a viewpoint from which to make their argument.  I've done this with classes of new students who are often too unsure of themselves to take a controversial stance.  When they are able to say "I'm only arguing this viewpoint because it was assigned to me", for some reason, they are able to take more risks without worrying that people will think they're liberal or conservative or something.  Just introduce it to them as a new type of critical thinking exercise -- and then in a few weeks let them choose their own viewpoints from which to argue, by which time they''ll understand better how to take a stance on a controversial question and defend it.

[rod_torfelson_armada]

Echoing the earlier point made about providing feedback by larryc and others - I provide fairly individualized feedback (some students get nearly the same feedback, because they're participating in nearly identical ways) to students at about the midway point. I try to be specific to point out flaws & strengths in what they're doing, and personalize the message as much as I can.

Yes this approach takes time, but seems "to be a tide that lifts all boats." There are a few laggards who just ignore what I say and continue in the same vein, but generally people make corrections and improve how they participate in my online class. Some make major improvements and start to do very well.

Because I then also spend less time slapping my forehead when reading student posts, this seems (to me at least) to be worth the time investment. 

[burnie]

#2 -- I haven't done this in the syllabus, but I've tried to do it in my interventions into the discussions.  They either ignore it or don't know what I'm on about.

#3 -- Yes, I think this is the only thing that will make them sit up and take notice.  The grades for this class are going to be way low.  Problem is this is punishing after the fact (it's just too much work, with 20 students, to grade participation on a weekly basis).  I think your #2 suggestion about the syllabus may help next time.  Maybe I need to lay out a clear rubric for the quality of participation I'm expecting. IT's not just how many times you post; it's how much you are trying to engage with the text and the topics under discussion. 

I have done #2 and it helps keep the quality high(er) from the start.   In particular I make it clear that a basic plot summary or a simple "agree/disagree" will result in zero credit.   I also encourage them to send me drafts of their posts via email for feedback before a grade the first week (few actually do it but the offer shuts up the whiners later).   I have to take issue with no weekly participation scores.   I do daily participation scores for my summer online class and it isn't terribly time consuming.   I'm usually able to grade 35 posts during daily office hours on a very simple 3-point rubric (which is what is laid out in the syllabus).  The kids who don't check their grades right away get pissy about it, but on the whole they appreciate being able to make changes and improve day-to-day instead of being "punished after the fact" on participation, as you point out.