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Author Topic: Calling all academic administrators, please advise!  (Read 3976 times)
scholar21
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« on: June 14, 2010, 02:50:07 AM »

I have been having a lot of sleepless nights this summer trying to figure out what to do with my life and any insight would be helpful. I will be graduating at the end of Fall 2010 this year (lost credits while transferring, should have been done by Spring 2010) and I will be applying to graduate schools early fall.

I am having hard time deciding if I should go into higher educ. administration or teaching social studies in high school. Throughout my school career I have always enjoyed going to school and learning. Therefore I believe that schools and universities would be a great place for me to work. I enjoy advising and helping others with their educational goal (giving my friends advice about grad schools, talking to my best friends high school aged sister about colleges, etc). I also enjoy studying history and wouldn't mind teaching it but I see myself as more of administrator than a teacher--I would go into h.s./school district administration after teaching for a few years. I currently have a 3.85 gpa and am looking at programs in higher education administration and in M.A.T/teacher certification programs at Columbia.

I am not rich and will have to pay off loans so I was wondering which option has more room for advancement, job security, benefits, and salary. I am obviously not doing this for the money since there are much better ways of getting rich but money is a factor since I will need to pay off loans. I am doing this because both of these options will require me to be a life long learner and because I enjoy helping others as well as working with students. Also I intend to come back for a Ed.D. in higher ed. admin or a principals certificate after my initial masters degree in either higher education or in MAT social studies. The statistics on the department of labor for secondary/district and higher ed.administration are essentially the same in terms of salary except for positions such as university presidents and school superintendents...however those jobs are so few and competitive that they can't be considered in my decision making. Does anyone have any personal insight/experience into this?

Thank you for your time
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polly_mer
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« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2010, 06:43:10 AM »

If you are a traditional age college student who is just now graduating from an undergraduate program, I doubt that any reputable graduate program in higher education administration would admit you.  They generally require classroom experience in their students.

You are probably better off going the M.A.T./teacher certification route, but one thing you are not considering is that high school history is a flooded job market with many more qualified and interested people than slots.  In addition, being a good student in liberal arts at the undergraduate level is not at all like being a teacher at any level and you will want to go visit some of the threads over In the Classroom about what the classes in an M.A.T. program are like and what people deal with as K-12 teachers.  An M.A.T. will not qualify you to teach at the postsecondary level except in remedial programs (which are not common in history) or in education programs as a subject specialist, which is not an option until you've had several years of K-12 classroom experience.

Thus, the advice I can give you is to ask yourself what your third choice would be since neither of those two plans is likely to pan out for you in the way you seem to think they will.

Oh, and this is not the appropriate board for your question to get a broad audience nor is your subject line related enough to your question to be helpful in getting attention.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2010, 06:44:15 AM by polly_mer » Logged

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midtownlabgeek
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« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2010, 07:41:38 AM »

I am having hard time deciding if I should go into higher educ. administration or teaching social studies in high school. Throughout my school career I have always enjoyed going to school and learning. Therefore I believe
that schools and universities would be a great place for me to work.

How much have you read about what higher ed administrators actually do?  Have you talked to any of the ones at your school?  Asked to "shadow" some of them?  "Schools and universities" can be great places to study, some of them are also good places to work - but they can look very different to the student and to the faculty and to the administration.

It's like saying, "I like to dine at fancy restaurants, so I'd love working in the kitchen".  Or maybe, "I'd love to keep the books and order the food for the restaurant."  Not really the same thing at all, even though it's the same building.

Quote
I enjoy advising and helping others with their educational goal (giving my friends advice about grad schools, talking to my best friends high school aged sister about colleges, etc).

Have you thought about guidance counseling?  Career consultant?  I think I read about some kind of "college application advisor" service that walks nervous parents through the process of finding their snowflake a happy home.

Advising in higher ed seems to be done either by bored admissions office people reading off the list of standard freshman classes, or by professors talking to students majoring in their subject.  "Higher ed administrator" would probably give you very little of this - although I don't know, since I'm not one.

Quote
I also enjoy studying history and wouldn't mind teaching it but I see myself as more of administrator than a teacher--I would go into h.s./school district administration after teaching for a few years. I currently have a 3.85 gpa and am looking at programs in higher education administration and in M.A.T/teacher certification programs at Columbia.

Guidance counselor -> school admin seems like a reasonable path, but I'm not an expert.

Quote
... I am doing this because both of these options will require me to be a life long learner and because I enjoy

Oddly enough, pretty much any job requires you to be "a life long learner".  Even if you wound up doing something totally unrelated to education, you'd still be free to pursue your love of history on your own time, or whatever other subject you might find yourself passionate about later on.  Possibly more free than as a teacher or administrator... :)

From what I've learned on this forum, there's two paths for higher ed administration:  there's the professor - chair - dean route, and there's working with admissions and the dean of students office.  The second one doesn't necessarily require a degree in administration until you start climbing up the ladder, but most people have to start right at the bottom.  Going straight into the MHA program might limit where you can start.

If the first is what you have mind, why not start working/volunteering in your college's admissions office?  Or hang out there and get to know the people and see what it is that they really do, how they got there, what they think of that career path.  Labor statistics are great but they don't necessarily predict your happiness and financial success...
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voxprincipalis
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« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2010, 08:02:37 AM »

I am having hard time deciding if I should go into higher educ. administration or teaching social studies in high school. Throughout my school career I have always enjoyed going to school and learning. Therefore I believe that schools and universities would be a great place for me to work. I enjoy advising and helping others with their educational goal (giving my friends advice about grad schools, talking to my best friends high school aged sister about colleges, etc).

Wait wait wait. You are telling other people how to make decisions about grad school and college, but you don't know how to figure these things out for yourself? What is really motivating you -- thorough knowledge of higher education, or telling other people what to do?

Based on your immediate desire to go into administration, I'm voting for "telling people what to do."

People who go into higher ed because they love teaching and learning are, in general, skeptical of those who go into it because they want to tell other people how to teach and learn without having been in the trenches themselves, usually for some time (say, 10+ years).

(They are also, for the most part, largely skeptical of EdD degrees, but you can read about that elsewhere on the site.)

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adminanon
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« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2010, 09:54:55 AM »

Throughout my school career I have always enjoyed going to school and learning. Therefore I believe that schools and universities would be a great place for me to work.

Chime to Midtownlabgeek's wise words about the difference between working at an institution and being a student at an institution. I would strongly advise you talk to the people at your career services office and ask them if you can set up some informational interviews not just with mid-tier to upper-level administrators, but lower-level administrators and staff.

Some immediate things you may not realize about administration: Roles and power dynamics are fluid and shifting and you will not always (in many areas of administration, rarely or never) be the sole authority or have sole control over anything. Flexibility and a high tolerance for frustration and ambiguity is key. Particularly on the student services side, you need to be prepared for heartbreak. Have you considered how you'll react if an advisee of yours commits suicide? That's not hyperbole; it's happened to administrators I know. And many administrative jobs, particularly entry-level, pay a LOT less than you might think.

From your post, I'm inferring--though I could be wrong--that part of the attraction of higher ed administration is that you like the idea of being an authority figure. IMO, that's a lousy reason to go into administration though I know people do it all the time. Personally, I do administration because I'm simply better at it than at teaching and where I am now gives me the opportunity to learn about a wide range of subjects in higher education, which I happen to love. Mileage varies on this, obviously.

You may also want to take at least a year and work in an administrative position between undergrad and grad, if you're serious about administration. All the administrators I know including myself started at the bottom and worked up, then went back for a master's or doctoral degree while working full-time. Many of them received tuition remission from their employer, which is another argument in favor of working at a college or university before getting a degree in a field you don't know much about except from the student side and might wind up hating from the other side.

Best of luck to you.
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scholar21
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« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2010, 02:00:18 PM »

Thank you for your replies!

polly_mer and everyone else who has the time to take a look, these are the programs in higher education administration that I was referring to:

http://www.tc.columbia.edu/o&ldept/highered/prospective.asp?Id=Program+Descriptions+and+Concentrations (Master of Arts program)

-"Students earning the M.A. degree will be positioned to serve in a variety of academic and student support positions, as well as in various policy-development, policy-support, and administrative roles."

http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/alt/highered/student_personnel_administrator

-This program looks really good as you have internships and pursue your degree at the same time.

I have talked to the administrators at my school, such as the dean of students, dean of academic advising, associate dean of academic affairs and had some insight into the day-to-day activities that they perform.

I do not want to go into administration to tell someone what to do. All of the experiences that I've had with professors and administrators at my small liberal arts school have been very positive and they have helped me make plenty of tough decisions. I want to get into this line of works because I enjoy the student-administrator interactions and like helping others.

Of course some of the best advice that I've had was from my professors. However, there are too many problems with trying to become a tenured history professor nowadays. This was my initial career choice but I've done so much research and have come to find that its almost impossible to land a tenure track job in US history even if I get my degree from some of the best universities in the country. There are already so many qualified applicants that cannot land jobs.

Also polly_mer in terms of getting the M.A.T. and teaching social studies I meant teaching social studies at the secondary level, not teaching post-secondary history. I understand that cannot be done with a M.A.T.

I do have the grades to apply to the top education programs for a master of arts + initial certification in social studies. Would a degree from Columbia, Harvard, etc. land me a social studies teaching job in NYC metro area?

The reason why I can't decide what I want to do is because I do not really understand the job market as I am only finishing up undergrad. I assume that the individuals who already work in the profession or are on the job hunt can provide much more insight. What I am DREADING is getting a degree and wasting money and not being able to find a job after wards.

The path that I would really like to follow is to start out with teaching and then moving into administration. However, I also strongly consider the college administrator option (aside from the subject deans as you have to have a Ph.D. in history and teach at the post-secondary level for many years before becoming a department chair or dean) because I believe that there is more freedom/less constraints in terms of what you do. For instance, k-12 teachers worry about teaching students for meaningless tests. Its more about test scores than gaining knowledge and personal growth.

Teaching high school history and then coming back for more degrees and going into administration or starting out with a mid-level/entry-level position in secondary administration are two options that intrigue me and these are careers that I would enjoy and can live with. However, I do not want to go into a career where I will not be able to land a job even though I would be going to one of the top-tier schools for that degree.

When exploring job offerings at higheredjobs.com I've noticed that most of them want a Masters degree. That is why I looked at the NYU/Columbia programs as they prepare students for entry/mid-level jobs in administration. The only job I can really get after graduation is that of a Resident Director but that might involve me to very remote states, which I do not really mind but I want to have a game plan.

The K-12 social studies teacher option is also a good one as teachers have more flexibility with summers off and I would be able to take summer classes, take night classes, and study for admissions tests if I would like to move into administration later. However, the important thing is being able to get a job. I have the grades to get into very good schools but will this be enough to get a job? There are applicants for jobs who went to less prestigious schools but have more experience. Obviously with teaching and transferring to a new school is different as too much experience is not always good since hiring that teacher will COST more than hiring a newly graduated student with no experience.

Thank you for your time, I really appreciate it!
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polly_mer
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« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2010, 08:06:40 PM »

Thank you for your replies!

polly_mer and everyone else who has the time to take a look, these are the programs in higher education administration that I was referring to:

http://www.tc.columbia.edu/o&ldept/highered/prospective.asp?Id=Program+Descriptions+and+Concentrations (Master of Arts program)

-"Students earning the M.A. degree will be positioned to serve in a variety of academic and student support positions, as well as in various policy-development, policy-support, and administrative roles."


http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/alt/highered/student_personnel_administrator

-This program looks really good as you have internships and pursue your degree at the same time.

I have talked to the administrators at my school, such as the dean of students, dean of academic advising, associate dean of academic affairs and had some insight into the day-to-day activities that they perform.

I think you are missing some key information here.  The MA programs you are looking at do not lead to dean or related positions.  Those programs lead to being a specialized administrative assistant in an particular area like the registrar's office, the dean's office, or the instructional services center.  Those are wonderful things to do and we need qualified people to do them, but that's not at all what it seemed like you want to do from your first post.

If you go this MA route, you definitely want to take a program that gets you into an internship to provide experience as part of the educational credentialing because it's that experience that will get you a job.  Just today, my university advertised for an admissions counselor and the qualifications were a BS/BA in anything with a preference given to people who had experience working with students in any administrative capacity.  They couldn't care less about that MA because practically no one has one and in this case, on-the-job training is usually much more valuable than any classroom.

Of course some of the best advice that I've had was from my professors. However, there are too many problems with trying to become a tenured history professor nowadays. This was my initial career choice but I've done so much research and have come to find that its almost impossible to land a tenure track job in US history even if I get my degree from some of the best universities in the country. There are already so many qualified applicants that cannot land jobs.
If those odds are too daunting for you, then it's good that you have decided to look into doing something else.


I do have the grades to apply to the top education programs for a master of arts + initial certification in social studies. Would a degree from Columbia, Harvard, etc. land me a social studies teaching job in NYC metro area?

The reason why I can't decide what I want to do is because I do not really understand the job market as I am only finishing up undergrad. I assume that the individuals who already work in the profession or are on the job hunt can provide much more insight. What I am DREADING is getting a degree and wasting money and not being able to find a job after wards.

While finding a job is a valid concern and I applaud going with your interests toward things that have the highest probability of getting a job, neither of the two paths you have suggested are likely to be degrees that lead to the jobs you want.

You can be an admissions counselor or other academic support job with just a bachelor's degree in practically any liberal arts subject.  That's what your liberal arts education has prepared you to do.  However, the entry-level market in those areas is fierce because so many people are qualified and interested in continuing to remain in the collegiate atmosphere.  Your best shot is to do your research on what those people do, write an outstanding cover letter about your interest and qualifications, and then apply to every job you can locate in those areas, even if it's not geographically where you want to be. 

To get where you want to be, you need to work your way through the system because those degrees you mention upthread really only work for experienced people to get to the next level; they do not function to allow one to circumvent the arduous process of starting at the bottom and gaining experience to advance.

Teaching high school history and then coming back for more degrees and going into administration or starting out with a mid-level/entry-level position in secondary administration are two options that intrigue me and these are careers that I would enjoy and can live with. However, I do not want to go into a career where I will not be able to land a job even though I would be going to one of the top-tier schools for that degree.

When exploring job offerings at higheredjobs.com I've noticed that most of them want a Masters degree. That is why I looked at the NYU/Columbia programs as they prepare students for entry/mid-level jobs in administration. The only job I can really get after graduation is that of a Resident Director but that might involve me to very remote states, which I do not really mind but I want to have a game plan.

I will repeat here: you are not qualified to get a mid-level position in secondary or post-secondary education administration with just a master's degree and no experience.  The reason those job ads are written that way is so that someone who works up through the system then has to go get the classroom training, which is useful at that stage since experience alone is not sufficient.  Those MA degrees are for the people who are ready for mid-level jobs based on experience, but need some classroom training to get the big picture that wasn't available purely from 5-10 years experience in just one place.

Resident director is appropriate for a starting position and does get you on the ladder.  After a few years doing that and moving around in that system, then you will be ready to enroll in the MA programs similar to the ones you listed upthread.


The K-12 social studies teacher option is also a good one as teachers have more flexibility with summers off and I would be able to take summer classes, take night classes, and study for admissions tests if I would like to move into administration later. However, the important thing is being able to get a job. I have the grades to get into very good schools but will this be enough to get a job? There are applicants for jobs who went to less prestigious schools but have more experience. Obviously with teaching and transferring to a new school is different as too much experience is not always good since hiring that teacher will COST more than hiring a newly graduated student with no experience.

You need to go do some research on what life is really like as a K-12 teacher if you think you will have summers off and can take night classes.  You seem to be aiming for a life in NYC.  There are much easier and lucrative ways to get an intellectually satisfying job that pays a living wage in NYC with your BA than what you have proposed.  Think outside the box and go investigate those.
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rshotwel
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« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2010, 05:29:20 PM »

To (somewhat) repeat what others have already said, you cannot be an academic administrator straight out of a graduate program with no experience. But there are qualifications. Higher education administration is divided into different (somewhat mutually exclusive) groups - academic affairs, student affairs, etc.. The academic administrators (department chair, deans, provosts, etc.) all come from the faculty ranks. They were professors first and then became administrators.

Administrators in other areas (registrar, student life, financial aid, advising, tutoring, teaching and learning programs, institutional research, contract management, etc.) often start off in thedepartments they are eventually in charge of. In those areas, it is possible to walk in with a MA in hand and get a job (although not the boss's job). If these areas are what you want to work in, then the MA program would probably get your foot in the door. But keep in mind you will have picked a path that is likely to exclude you from the academic affairs route.

Higher education and secondary education are also quite different. Going one way (high school teacher) is likely to exclude you from another (higher education faculty).
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msparticularity
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« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2010, 08:07:20 PM »


Higher education and secondary education are also quite different. Going one way (high school teacher) is likely to exclude you from another (higher education faculty).

Yes, but you can still go on to a career in curriculum and instruction, or educational counseling, educational research, or any of the many other fields in education. A number of us here have done just that, in fact.
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