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[blacksheep773]

I am currently completing a Masters in Criminal Justice.  However, I really want to go into Higher Ed.  I came here knowing that because I was told that all you need is a Masters for higher ed entry level stuff and CJ was my Bachelor's and I want to connect the material to higher ed (they really do relate but no one in the HE field [my CJ professors understand it] seems to really get the connection I do from relating my CJ stuff to higher ed on a regular basis).  After applying to a bunch of jobs and having no luck I decided to start this Fall a second Masters in Higher Ed.  Some things I know are not helping me is that I transferred a lot and never got leadership experience in any clubs (my work study is my most consistent experience where I was a supervisor for a year).  Also, at my current school while I am involved in a lot I am not in leadership positions again because I am new and I don't have a GA because I got a full scholarship instead.  I am wondering if getting this second Masters is the right thing for me.  I've been told by people in the field I should get it because CJ and HE are not exactly the same but I do not really want to spend money and two more years of my life in school if I really don't need to.  I do hope to get a Doctorate in HE down the line but I know first comes experience, which is where my problem is because no one wants to hire me because of my unique background (the transferring and CJ education) (if I applied to CJ and HE jobs today I'd probably have a much better shot at CJ even though I've done no internships etc...I've been told not to work in CJ if I want HE).  Part of me wants to see if I can transfer into the PhD program at the school I'm going to to get my second Masters at after a year (you don't need experience there for the program), but its not a prestigious institution.

Any advice (hope my post makes sense)?

Thanks!

[figee]

I'm replying, not because I think I can give you any advice, but because I have read your post three times and don't really understand what you are asking for advice about.  So maybe others are also having problems. 

Are you looking for advice about moving into Higher Ed?  Teaching?  Or research?  Or admin?

Are you looking for advice about how to get a job?

Are you asking about whether you should continue with the second Masters?

[octoprof]

So you want to go into Higher Ed (what do you mean by that? what sort of job?) but you deliberately pursued a masters degree in a field you know wouldn't get you to your goal? Am I reading that correctly?

Please provide some clarity.

[dellaroux]

I think I"m getting it, but it is a bit harder to follow...let me know if this is what you mean:

It sounds as if you see a way that your work in criminal justice can be enhanced and/or could add value to complementary work done in Education (I think one confusion is resulting from the fact that most programs just call themselves "Education" programs, not "Higher Ed." Your school may use this term and that may have made you think it's a common one, but it's not actually--not a biggie, but that may be part of the confusion).

If that's so, then you are wanting to work in an interdisciplinary fashion, and while you might do well by doing the second MA in Education directly, you might do better by finding a place where independent MAs are possible (Lesley University is one, U/Maine might be another; I think I have heard of one in CA but that was a bit ago) and by crafting the overlapping areas of theory and practice that you have in mind from the outset.

I believe this very overlap has been explored, in fact, both in BA programs (I know of one at Ohio State, for example) and in MA programs, as well. So it's not a huge cohort but you might have some supportive people here and there with whom to discuss what you want to do, and who could help you articulate your ideas so that others could buy into them and see how you mean to do the work you want to do.

It's unfortunate that in some settings, people think so categorically that they can't parse interdepartmental connections; as you get further in your work, you will probably meet both more of this in some people, and less in others.

It's important to have a 2- to 3-sentence summary of your theoretical framework handy so you can "explain yourself" quickly and simply to those who either want to help you or hire you, and since you would need that for an application at any place you might want to enter, that would be a good starting point, to try to frame what you want to do within such a program and what you'd hope to do afterwards with it.

I also know of people who have explored the interface between these two areas without a formal background in both areas, although I think you're wiser to want to get your chops up in both as well.

For example, I know of two different programs for teaching writing, specifically poetry, to incarcerated people, which were founded by people with some background in teaching who found an expert in CJ to work with in writing grants and setting up the program appropriately.

If something like this is what you have in mind, it can be complex and difficult (and heartbreaking at times) but it is a worthy effort and I wish you well in it.

[blacksheep773]

OK, guess I didn't explain myself that good (it was late when I did this and I've had a lot on my mind, mainly because of issues like this).

I want to eventually be a Dean of Students.  However, I know that to get there I need entry level jobs first.  That is where I am having a problem because no one wants to even consider me because my background is not that strong.  I want the second Masters because I will get the knowledge, 2 years worth of GAs, 2 internships, and hopefully more connections than I can ever dream about.

I do sort of want an interdisciplinary perspective to my work.  I feel that CJ has a lot to offer education in terms of working with students and understanding why they can be bad (and I feel it can enhance my perspective as a hopeful Dean).  I am going to a school where one of my ed profs has collaborated with one of my CJ profs so I'm hoping I can find many concrete ways to combine the fields (I want to bring CJ into ed; ed will be my main focus, which is the reason I went for CJ first so from hopefully this fall on out I can focus on ed).

The problems that have been raised with my post can easily be the reason I am having trouble really explaining myself to others.  I really think I probably need some ed background so I more clearly articulate how exactly I want to incorporate CJ into ed.

[polly_mer]

I want to eventually be a Dean of Students.  However, I know that to get there I need entry level jobs first.  That is where I am having a problem because no one wants to even consider me because my background is not that strong.  I want the second Masters because I will get the knowledge, 2 years worth of GAs, 2 internships, and hopefully more connections than I can ever dream about.

I do sort of want an interdisciplinary perspective to my work.  I feel that CJ has a lot to offer education in terms of working with students and understanding why they can be bad (and I feel it can enhance my perspective as a hopeful Dean).  I am going to a school where one of my ed profs has collaborated with one of my CJ profs so I'm hoping I can find many concrete ways to combine the fields (I want to bring CJ into ed; ed will be my main focus, which is the reason I went for CJ first so from hopefully this fall on out I can focus on ed).

I think you misunderstand several things.

A) A CJ background per se is not relevant to being Dean of Students.  Experience as a professor and academic in any field provides the necessary experience to become Dean of Students.

B) Because of A, you likely need a doctorate in something to get hired on the TT so that you can get tenure and then be promoted to Dean of Students.  Deans come out of the faculty or are hired from faculty at other universities.  Dean is not usually a position that one can hit without being tenured faculty first.

C) Because of B and your evidence confusion about how ranks work in higher education, a second master's degree is not at all indicated.  Instead, you should be finishing a doctorate in something and figuring out how to do research and teaching in a TT position as a professor.

In short, what you have proposed makes no sense because you aren't putting yourself on a path that leads to where you want to go.

[imawakenow]

I think you misunderstand several things.

A) A CJ background per se is not relevant to being Dean of Students.  Experience as a professor and academic in any field provides the necessary experience to become Dean of Students.

B) Because of A, you likely need a doctorate in something to get hired on the TT so that you can get tenure and then be promoted to Dean of Students.  Deans come out of the faculty or are hired from faculty at other universities.  Dean is not usually a position that one can hit without being tenured faculty first.

C) Because of B and your evidence confusion about how ranks work in higher education, a second master's degree is not at all indicated.  Instead, you should be finishing a doctorate in something and figuring out how to do research and teaching in a TT position as a professor.

In short, what you have proposed makes no sense because you aren't putting yourself on a path that leads to where you want to go.

I'm going to disagree with some of the items at the top, but end up pretty much agreeing on the conclusion about additional education.

A dean of students (for universities the title is usually something like vice president of student affairs) is going to be someone who is responsible for things such as student housing (i.e., residence life) and student programming (and possibly discipline or even retention at some schools).

The route to that type of a job is pretty straightforward: you work your way up the ladder in student life, res life, student development, etc. and eventually obtain a dean of students position.

The only possible way that a second master's degree would be beneficial is if it guaranteed that you would obtain an entry-level job in student life upon graduation. Is the program you are considering making that claim? Does it provide evidence to substantiate such a claim? FWIW, most student life-type M.A. programs I'm aware of are more for giving people currently in the field a leg up on obtaining their next jobs.

So, there is very limited value in a second master's. I also see no value for you to pursue a Ph.D. unless you desire to be an academic. Without previous student life experience, you will not get a dean of students or VP of student affairs position--no matter how impressive your academic credentials.

Thus, your best bet is to get your foot in the door in an entry-level student life position somewhere--unfortunately easier said than done in this economic climate.

[dellaroux]

OK, I misread that one entirely!

I think Poly_mer and IAN have the right of it; what you want to do is on the path to a mountain and it sounds like you're thinking you need a canoe and paddles to get there.

I hope you find the path you need to go on and a goal that is worthy of your work.

[polly_mer]

A dean of students (for universities the title is usually something like vice president of student affairs) is going to be someone who is responsible for things such as student housing (i.e., residence life) and student programming (and possibly discipline or even retention at some schools).

Obviously, institutional norms on titles vary because I'm accustomed to Dean of Students being primarily academic discipline, retention, and such whereas residence life and extracurricular activities falls under someone else's purview.

However, in neither case is a master's degree the route from student to Dean of Students.

[octoprof]

At my RU/H, the Dean of Students handled all things student affairs (residence life, clubs, retention, academic discipline, etc.).  This person has an Ed.D.  I don't think he's ever been on the tenure track, though.

OP, in general, when you have a goal in mind, you should look at the resumes of people who have achieved that goal already and do what they did.

[kedves]

As someone who teaches criminology, I don't understand what you're thinking if you want to work in higher education.  There are some other confusing things in your posts, but in general, I think you need to identify the type of entry-level or in-five-years job you want and model your training on that.

[macaroon]

I want to eventually be a Dean of Students.  However, I know that to get there I need entry level jobs first.  That is where I am having a problem because no one wants to even consider me because my background is not that strong.  I want the second Masters because I will get the knowledge, 2 years worth of GAs, 2 internships, and hopefully more connections than I can ever dream about.

Some things I know are not helping me is that I transferred a lot and never got leadership experience in any clubs (my work study is my most consistent experience where I was a supervisor for a year).  Also, at my current school while I am involved in a lot I am not in leadership positions again because I am new and I don't have a GA because I got a full scholarship instead.  I am wondering if getting this second Masters is the right thing for me.

I think your advisors are sugar-coating it about your chances of working in residence life.  As Imawakenow says, positions in Residence Life will be going to people with the masters degree AND years of experience as an RA in the dorms AND extensive involvement in clubs.  Most of the people in your cohort are going to have this experience, and you'll be competing with them once you get out.  They have evidence that they were passionate about residence life when they were undergrads, and you don't, and nothing is ever going to fix that. 

Sorry.  I don't think you should do this. 



 

[anon99]

Where I am, the situation is similar to what polly described where the Deans are all TT and have a PhD.

[macaroon]

Where I am, the situation is similar to what polly described where the Deans are all TT and have a PhD.

Dean of Students at a primarily undergraduate college is a big job, and I don't think it could be handled by someone that is maintaining an active research program and teaching.
Are you really sure they don't "handle" residence life (if there are undergrads)?  Residence life typically reports to the DoS even if the DoS isn't intimately involved in the hiring of RA's.  After all, if a student is flunking his classes AND selling weed out of the dorm rooms, it's important to have a coordinated response to both problems.

If there are no undergrads, and therefore no residences, the "job" of DoS is a much smaller one, and can be done by someone with a research program.  Even at my grad school,  which was a research institute with no undergrads, the DoS's office handled our measly "Residence Life".  It wasn't much - they had a budget for a couple of fun trips, had an emergency loan program, and coordinated any leave of absence requests. 

[polly_mer]

Where I am, the situation is similar to what polly described where the Deans are all TT and have a PhD.

Dean of Students at a primarily undergraduate college is a big job, and I don't think it could be handled by someone that is maintaining an active research program and teaching.

I've not seen a Dean of Students who maintains an active research program, but I've seen them teach a class every semester because they love to teach.  They are drawn from the tenured ranks, but I agree that it's a big job (even at the small schools where I have been) so that it's a different daily life, unlike being department chair where the tasks just go on top of being a normal faculty member.