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[greywolf]

Hello Everyone!

I recently completed my BS EE degree  with a CGPA of 2.9, and an aggregate percentage of 74.5%.

Although I had scored well (an overall A grade; A+ is the highest) in my HSSC (High School) exams, the fact is that at that time, I never intended to study engineering. I always wanted to study business or accounting. In my part of the world, it is the parents who decide what children should study at university. So, in accordance with my parents' wishes, I halfheartedly enrolled in this BS EE programme at one of the best engineering universities in my country (ranked at 5th position domestically). However, I found engineering studies uninteresting.

I tried my best to convince parents that I didn't want to become an engineer but they never listened. My family circumstances also contributed to my bad academic performance. It was only when I realized that engineering was my only option, that I started taking studies seriously. Eventually I became involved in coursework, labs etc.  I repeated 6 failed courses and improved 4 others in which I had low grades. And in this way, I finally graduated with a 2.9 CGPA on a scale of 4. In fact, in last 60 Credit hours, I have a 3+ average.

I'm quite satisfied that I'm a skilled engineer, and my professors here also recognize my talent. And with this CGPA, getting a job and making a career in engineering isn't an issue at all.

However, much to my disappointment, the 6 Fs are printed in in my BS transcript and this literally gives me nightmares. I'm worried if these might later affect my PhD admission prospects.

Ironically, as much as I used to dislike it, today I love engineering to the point that I want to get a PhD and become a professor/researcher.

I really aspire to study for a PhD (in some computer engg field) at a world class university such as the UT at Austin or University of Washington. But before that, I'll soon be enrolling in an MS computer engineering programme at a very good local university.  I'm too sure I'll be able to score a CGPA of 4 in the required 30 Credit Hours of the MS programme.

In your opinion, can a good score in MS degree ameliorate the bad undergraduate grades? Apart from scoring well in MS, as well as in the GRE, what else must I do to ensure that I get admitted to a good PhD programme after 2 years? Should I retake some undergrad courses alongside MS courses?

Or should I entirely consider doing BS again in Computer Science or Engineering??? I'm 25 yrs old and I'm desperate to get my PhD with in the next 5 years

I'll be very grateful for your guidance

[august_leo]

Dude: it's too late. Even 1 F is too many to get into a "world class" grad program. I'm really sorry. I'm not trying to be mean.

Go get an engineering job. You'll make more money and... you might actually get a position.

Again, I am not trying to be the meanest person ever. I'm just giving you an honest answer. I'm very sorry.

[greywolf]

well, buddy by world-class, I obviously don't mean MIT or Stanford, but the lesser ranked but still well reputed universities. Don't you think I stand a chance if I first get an MS degree from a good university in my country, with a perfect 4 CGPA and then apply for PhD??

[greywolf]

Dude: it's too late. Even 1 F is too many to get into a "world class" grad program. I'm really sorry. I'm not trying to be mean.

Go get an engineering job. You'll make more money and... you might actually get a position.

Again, I am not trying to be the meanest person ever. I'm just giving you an honest answer. I'm very sorry.

well, buddy by world-class, I obviously don't mean MIT or Stanford, but the lesser ranked but still well reputed universities. Don't you think I stand a chance if I first get an MS degree from a good university in my country, with a perfect 4 CGPA and then apply for PhD??

And since you're from the UK, do you think that on the basis of an excellent MS score, I stand any chance of making it to a PhD programme at Imperial College, Bristol University  or other similar institution?? How do those guys evaluate admission applications?? Doesn't an excellent MS degree wash away the undergraduate period blunders??

I mean it is one life, one chance. And I'm willing to work hard to any extent, to make sure I realize my dream of getting a PhD at a good university.

[southerntransplant]

I'm on the committee examining graduate applications for our engineering program. We're not MIT or Stanford, though we are an R1 institution.

It's always best to finish strong, but 6 F's are tough to overcome. Were I you, I would try to distance yourself from those F's by acing all your classes in your MS and then perhaps put in a couple of years as an engineer. Stay in contact with your scholastic advisors so that you can get strong recommendations, and be sure to be very explicit in your skills and your research interests when writing your statement. There are no guarantees, but being able to show that you've gotten past the difficulties associated with the 6 F's is key.

Also, I cringe whenever I read a statement that starts "Ever since I was a child..." so don't do it :)

[august_leo]

Ok, I talked to someone else about it. He thinks if you do really well in the MS you have a shot.

Apparently, I'm strongly biased because my field is so flooded by people wanting to get into PhD programs. I thought EE/computer engineering was also a flooded field, but it may not be.

Sorry.

Clearly, SouthernTransplant is in your field (or a close field) so you should follow that advice.

Edited to correct typo.

[tuxthepenguin]

Also, I cringe whenever I read a statement that starts "Ever since I was a child..." so don't do it :)

LOL!!

The same thing irritates the heck out of me when reviewing grad school applications. What you liked as a child (toy trains, or cartoons, or going to the office with your Mom, or whatever) is unlikely to convince me that you are a good match for our program.

[greywolf]

I'm on the committee examining graduate applications for our engineering program. We're not MIT or Stanford, though we are an R1 institution.

It's always best to finish strong, but 6 F's are tough to overcome. Were I you, I would try to distance yourself from those F's by acing all your classes in your MS and then perhaps put in a couple of years as an engineer. Stay in contact with your scholastic advisors so that you can get strong recommendations, and be sure to be very explicit in your skills and your research interests when writing your statement. There are no guarantees, but being able to show that you've gotten past the difficulties associated with the 6 F's is key.

Also, I cringe whenever I read a statement that starts "Ever since I was a child..." so don't do it :)

Sir,
thank you so much for the advice.

the fact is that all of those Fs I got were not because I failed in the exams. In 4 of them, I couldn't appear in terminal on account of shortage of attendance while in the other 2, again I couldn't appear because of illness on exam day. Non-appearance in exam amounts to an F grade according to university's policy, in contrast to that of many other universities in my country who still run the annual system, instead of the relatively new semester system. Actually the American GPA system was introduced for the first time in my country and to be honest most of us were never really aware that even after passing failed courses, Fs are printed in the final Transcript. So it came as a shock to see all those 6 Fs printed in the Transcript.

Well, I'm willing to do everything in my capacity to rectify the past blunders. Getting a perfect score in MS, publishing papers and acquiring relevant work experience seems the only way out.

[madhatter]

Although I don't know engineering specifically, I think ST's advice is good. You need to be able to show improvement. It helps if the Fs were early in your undergrad career and you can make a convincing case that you did better as you went along. Having really strong GRE scores is also necessary, as well as great letters of recommendation from faculty who can talk about your improvement.

Even so, you will still want to cast a pretty wide net as far as your applications go. Don't count on getting into a "world-class" (whatever that means) program. You may have to be satisfied with whatever Ph.D. program will accept you.

[ptarmigan]

I had a crappy start to my academic career, earned many F's at my first school, and finished many years later with an overall GPA around 3.0 (much higher for my present instituation).  I did get into grad school in math, but it is not what you'd call a world-class program.  Of the 9 modest institutions I applied to (none highly ranked), I was admitted to 4, and funded at only 1.

Hopefully the master's degree will help you.  I hope that you also value it for its own sake, in case it doesn't work out.

[commcycle]

Also, I cringe whenever I read a statement that starts "Ever since I was a child..." so don't do it :)

(insert sound of crumpling paper from throwing out statement of purpose for applications)

[greywolf]

Also, I cringe whenever I read a statement that starts "Ever since I was a child..." so don't do it :)

(insert sound of crumpling paper from throwing out statement of purpose for applications)

hey pal that sounds too cruel :-(

[southerntransplant]

I'm on the committee examining graduate applications for our engineering program. We're not MIT or Stanford, though we are an R1 institution.

It's always best to finish strong, but 6 F's are tough to overcome. Were I you, I would try to distance yourself from those F's by acing all your classes in your MS and then perhaps put in a couple of years as an engineer. Stay in contact with your scholastic advisors so that you can get strong recommendations, and be sure to be very explicit in your skills and your research interests when writing your statement. There are no guarantees, but being able to show that you've gotten past the difficulties associated with the 6 F's is key.

Also, I cringe whenever I read a statement that starts "Ever since I was a child..." so don't do it :)

Sir,
thank you so much for the advice.

the fact is that all of those Fs I got were not because I failed in the exams. In 4 of them, I couldn't appear in terminal on account of shortage of attendance while in the other 2, again I couldn't appear because of illness on exam day. Non-appearance in exam amounts to an F grade according to university's policy, in contrast to that of many other universities in my country who still run the annual system, instead of the relatively new semester system. Actually the American GPA system was introduced for the first time in my country and to be honest most of us were never really aware that even after passing failed courses, Fs are printed in the final Transcript. So it came as a shock to see all those 6 Fs printed in the Transcript.

Well, I'm willing to do everything in my capacity to rectify the past blunders. Getting a perfect score in MS, publishing papers and acquiring relevant work experience seems the only way out.

If the switch to the US GPA system is new, perhaps your university has noted something to the effect on your transcript. Additionally in some international transcripts I've seen, the university has noted the departmental average in their system. This way I can understand where, for example, a 16/20 stands in the context of the department. Chances are the switch to a new GPA system has caught more than just you unaware, and you might benefit from that.

What I generally ask myself while evaluating an application is "Can this person hack the coursework?" I generally thus look more favorably on transcripts that have risen to the occasion in the last couple of years in undergrad and have aced their MS courses. It tells me that the applicant is moving on from early failures.

[greywolf]

well, I'm obliged to state that for me engineering is nothing less than a passion, a life in itself. And to be recognized as a master, it is imperative to get a PhD from a good university. VLSI Design, computer architecture are my are primary areas of interest.

I honestly regret that I had been extremely irresponsible, too immature during my undergraduate years. Even though I have excellent technical skills, I feel that this undergrad transcript is going to haunt me for the rest of my life. This is so because I never got anything less than 'A' grades in High School and secondary school (A+ is the highest)

Is it feasible to start over again and get another BS degree? I'm presently 25 years old. It shall not be possible to get into a BS in EE this time, since in my country, mature students aren't allowed the chance to enroll in engineering colleges. However, I can still study for a BS in computer science alongside my work...but it will take me 4 long years! Will a BS in CS with a 4 CGPA, clean transcript along side a BSEE with 2.9 CGPA (but with 6 Fs, plus 4 improved grades littering the transcript) strengthen my application PhD application?  

And then, in the end I want to pursue a PhD in computer hardware related field, not computer science . It is a very perplexing situation indeed!

In case I get an MS with a perfect 4/4 CGPA, can you please name some good universities (not the top ones of course) that may overlook my bad undergrad record and take into account my superior MS grades, GRE and work experience. What about SUNY, California State University North ridge, Wayne State University or other similar State institutions??? What about University of Washington?

By the way, the school here at which I'm going to pursue MS studies has many professors who have a PhD from GeorgiaTech. And they'll be able to provide excellent letters of recommendation.

[scampster]

As an international student, your graduate school will be funded by individual faculty members. I don't think anyone here can tell you which professors might be willing to overlook the bad grades.and hire you anyway. Your best bet will be the professors at your masters.school. they know you and your field best.