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[embitteredhistorian]

Well, one of the problems, I think, is that a lot of grad students DO dismiss the rest of all of possible worlds and consider a 2/2 load at an R1 to be the only possible world, often at the behest of their faculty, and that then sometimes leaves them bitter and unemployed.

Yeah, I don't know anyone like this anymore nor have I for the past decade. If there are STILL delusional humanities grads out there, I have no idea where they're coming from. The publicity on these pages has reached a fevered pitch of late, but it's hardly new. Or maybe I just went to a particularly insightful and realistic program filled with newer professors who knew the realities of the situation better than others?

Our discipline still has a good population of delusional people, based on conversations that I see on the wiki and hear at annual conferences.  There are some realistic people, but there's more than enough deluded dreamers to go around.

Like any pyramid scheme, it will thrive for as long as there are gullible, delusional people around.

[candide69]

Thanks everyone for your generous input.

prephd: I was a little confused about your posts. You didn't do grad work in English, but you did pursue an MA, correct? Can I ask, is your MA still in the humanities or some field that would be considered "academic," or did you do something completely different? (I'm not asking that you tell me what your degree is - that would probably appear impolite and rather pathetic on my part.)

dellaroux: From what I understand, it's a conventional package, full tuition remission and a stipend for six years, with the promise of additional fellowships that one could apply for (I use the term promise loosely). For what it's worth, they claim to have a really great placement rate. I actually can imagine doing other things with my life, though they often fall into the category of pure pursuits rather than lucrative career paths - I phrase it that way because it seems like grad school and professional academic life stands a good chance of forcing me to leave some of those other interests behind, although I'm not claiming that university faculty have no hobbies. OK I'm kind of rambling so I'll go on...

I am unfamiliar with Semenza's book, but when was it written?

Greg Semenza's book was published in 2005. So yes, it's not perfectly up to date. But even if it isn't advisable to go this route, I still think this book will be useful to people who are absolutely set on doing the doctorate and nothing else (at least until my med-school sister waltzes in to pronounce the time of death for humanities professions). Also, Semenza has a great little fact sheet for people considering grad school in the humanities. I'll link to it, because I haven't seen it posted on the forum, although it is perhaps not sufficiently admonitory. Note that this stuff isn't included in his book. http://sp.uconn.edu/~gms02007/GregSite12_Everything.htm

glowdart: It does seem like more people would shy away from this track if they took a look at the actual placements of Ph.D's. They are most certainly not at Ivy League schools, and most of the time they aren't at "public ivies" either.

sugaree: I've thought about your point about the option to bow out after the MA (or before, if it's just not working), and I acknowledge that I could come out of that situation not too much the worse for wear, but on the other hand I've already taken off a couple of years after undergrad, and that would be another couple...I think it would be much better to make the most honest decision I can at this point, especially since ducking out with an MA won't necessarily open up a world of opportunities that weren't there before. I've waffled for a long time. It's kind of time to make a commitment, whatever that turns out to be.

You may find your ideal Cunegonde in grad school (and not even have to worry about being expelled by many kicks in the backside).

Just speculating here, but maybe the ends are more similar than I thought. Maybe it's best to end up married to the profession and conscious of its serious deficiencies, all the while just happy to cultivate the garden (wait, did he mean that literally?).

Thanks again. Still not decided, but perhaps you can judge in which direction I'm leaning...

[dr_prephd]

Thanks everyone for your generous input.

prephd: I was a little confused about your posts. You didn't do grad work in English, but you did pursue an MA, correct? Can I ask, is your MA still in the humanities or some field that would be considered "academic," or did you do something completely different? (I'm not asking that you tell me what your degree is - that would probably appear impolite and rather pathetic on my part.)

Broadly speaking, I'm in a social science / policy field. I certainly have the ability to use the skills I gained with my English degree (critical thinking, analysis, writing, interpretation, etc.). It's not the route for everyone (I did consider myself somewhat of a "sellout" after I gave up "my passion"). But, it's something I like and I'm good at doing, it's something I can always find jobs doing, and I've always got time to go back and get that MFA if I want to... right?

[candide69]

Thanks. And I don't think anyone would consider you a sellout. I mean, teaching lit is only one of many careers. If you have job security, I would imagine you have time to give to your real passion. Hey, what am I doing trying to give advice here?

[mfaer]

glowdart: It does seem like more people would shy away from this track if they took a look at the actual placements of Ph.D's.

Not necessarily.  Delusional people are delusional for a reason. 

Also, as someone who is in a doctoral English program, I don't buy the notion that most students are willing to make the necessary sacrifices to land a job, even though they're making some sacrifices while in school.  There seems to be a general ignorance about the job market, despite the market's downturn, and too many candidates who are picky about location and institution type.  Or, there isn’t the genuine commitment to teach at a teaching-focused school in an undesirable location, and when the applicant applies for the job, the search committee can tell that the applicant will be looking to bolt ASAP. 

Some posters here will pay lip service to the idea that English doctoral candidates are gun-ho about applying for jobs in undesirable locations and at mediocre/lower-tier institutions, but I’m not buying what they’re selling. Like glowdart, I've seen too much anecdotal evidence in "real life" that suggests otherwise.

[candide69]

mfaer: This probably opens me up to criticism for missing the proper zeal, but I do think that this lack of control over location can be a very great sacrifice one is asked to make. There are good reasons for being stranded and isolated during graduate training (and good reasons why this is a bad thing, too), but I think everyone would like a greater degree of freedom once that training is complete. To wishful thinking!

glowdart: like the graceland reference!

[ptarmigan]

I'm not sure why a highly-educated person should be willing to relocate to the Polytechnic Institute of Northwest Alaska and teach 6 sections of Comp I and II every semester for $35K a year.  I don't think unwillingness to do so reflects snootiness or a lack of dedication.  At some point, a job just isn't worth it, relative to your other options.  You could make more money working almost any office job in the city of your choice and probably have more time to do research as well.

[mfaer]

I'm not sure why a highly-educated person should be willing to relocate to the Polytechnic Institute of Northwest Alaska and teach 6 sections of Comp I and II every semester for $35K a year.  I don't think unwillingness to do so reflects snootiness or a lack of dedication.  At some point, a job just isn't worth it, relative to your other options.  You could make more money working almost any office job in the city of your choice and probably have more time to do research as well.

That's fine.  Just don't whine on the Internet when you take the office job.  You can have fun in your cubicle during the summers, too, when the person teaching the 5/5 load at Nebraska Tech has summers off to research.

[mfaer]

mfaer: This probably opens me up to criticism for missing the proper zeal, but I do think that this lack of control over location can be a very great sacrifice one is asked to make. There are good reasons for being stranded and isolated during graduate training (and good reasons why this is a bad thing, too), but I think everyone would like a greater degree of freedom once that training is complete. To wishful thinking!

glowdart: like the graceland reference!

I understand, and agree with you that it can be a great sacrifice to make, but it's the reality of the market, and there's no point in complaining about it once you've already decided to enter a PhD program. 

[embitteredhistorian]

I'm not sure why a highly-educated person should be willing to relocate to the Polytechnic Institute of Northwest Alaska and teach 6 sections of Comp I and II every semester for $35K a year.  I don't think unwillingness to do so reflects snootiness or a lack of dedication.  At some point, a job just isn't worth it, relative to your other options.  You could make more money working almost any office job in the city of your choice and probably have more time to do research as well.

That's fine.  Just don't whine on the Internet when you take the office job.  You can have fun in your cubicle during the summers, too, when the person teaching the 5/5 load at Nebraska Tech has summers off to research.

Bingo.

When I was in the UK, the older faculty had an unwritten rule not to discuss the job situation with PhD students; it was considered "in poor taste", and the mere mention of the PhD being a process of being part of a career was "professionalism", somehow a bad thing (?).

I'm curious if American faulty are more open about discussing the job market with grad students.

[conjugate]

I'm curious if American faulty are more open about discussing the job market with grad students.

Actually, we only discuss it with them if we're not faulty! 

Seriously, faculty were fairly open with me and my cohort about the job market, even admitting when the much vaunted wave of retirements failed to materialize. 

[ptarmigan]

I'm not sure why a highly-educated person should be willing to relocate to the Polytechnic Institute of Northwest Alaska and teach 6 sections of Comp I and II every semester for $35K a year.  I don't think unwillingness to do so reflects snootiness or a lack of dedication.  At some point, a job just isn't worth it, relative to your other options.  You could make more money working almost any office job in the city of your choice and probably have more time to do research as well.

That's fine.  Just don't whine on the Internet when you take the office job.  You can have fun in your cubicle during the summers, too, when the person teaching the 5/5 load at Nebraska Tech has summers off to research.

Well, I don't know. I've had an office job for 12 years and it's been pretty sweet, but I'm leaving it to get a PhD in Math.  So what you write here doesn't really apply to me.  But I don't, in any case, mean that people shouldn't take an academic job if they can get one they're reasonably satisfied with.  I just don't think it's wrong to think that the options suck and it might not be worth sacrificing every single other consideration just to be a professor.

[dr_prephd]

I just don't think it's wrong to think that the options suck and it might not be worth sacrificing every single other consideration just to be a professor.

Amen. Which is why I turned down the one lonely offer I got this year.