next »

[mircenzo]

Hi guys, long story short, I am a foreigner working with an employment card that expired in September 2010 while my contract as a postdoc was supposed to end in November 2010. Unfortunately, my supervisor was in (one  month!) vacation in September when this happened (of course, I knew my employment permit was expiring and I applied for the renewal 3 months before the expiration date as I am supposed to do every two years but this year for whatever reason my new card came in October). Anyway, as soon as my card expired, they called from the university to make it clear that I am NOT allowed to work and they even took my office keys back, while waiting for my new card. Meanwhile, I received a campus interview for October, so I thought "Great! I am not allowed to work (I am not on the paycheck either), so I can concentrate to prepare my first campus interview" which I did. Unfortunately, as soon as my boss came back from vacation end September, and as soon as I naively told her the whole story (no employment card --> me not working --> me preparing for campus interview)... she fired me!!!! Well technically, she could not fire me in end September since I was not even working, but when I received my employment card she just terminated my employment because I did not work in September! She claimed that I should have worked without being authorized... from home! Of course, she did not care about my campus interview. By the way, I have voice record of our last conversation when she is advising me to violate the law... I knew she was going to fire me and I wanted to have a souvenir :)

Now my question is, the b*tch is moving to another institution launching a tenure-track career. I believe no department would hire her if they knew what she did to me (and others too, since she is known not to have good relationships with anyone).

What would you do? Sabotage her recent hiring or just let it go? She is sabotaging my career since not only did she fire me, but she is spreading the word that I am incompetent and this is why she fired me (which is not true... the only journal paper she published in the past several years is the one I wrote)

[mozman]

First, she's a b*tch and what she did was wrong.  It is illegal for you to have worked in any capacity in that situation.

However, this:

...I believe no department would hire her if they knew what she did to me (and others too, since she is known not to have good relationships with anyone).

is flat-out delusional.  Most departments wouldn't give 2 s***s about it.

This:

...By the way, I have voice record of our last conversation when she is advising me to violate the law... I knew she was going to fire me and I wanted to have a souvenir :)

also is meaningless.  Voice recordings are not admissible as evidence.

You can't sabotage her record.   She is newly-hired on the tenure track and you are the fired post-doc -anything you say will be chalked up to being disgruntled.

Get over it and move on.

[mozman]

By the way, I have voice record of our last conversation when she is advising me to violate the law... I knew she was going to fire me and I wanted to have a souvenir :)

Also, depending on your state this could be illegal wiretapping.

[shrek]

This happened back in November? Did you go to HR at the time? Even though you were in a post doc there are procedures to follow-- your boss should have followed them. Were you paid in Sept.?

[mozman]

I just realized - you are in the Middle East.  Under those circumstances I have no idea if my advice is relevant.

Good luck.

[mircenzo]

mozman>> I am not in the middle-east :) and this event happened in USA! I think you are right though, nobody did/will care. That's why nobody tried to stop her. But still, sometimes when I am still mad at her... I think that she would be harmed in one way or another if I post the audio file, say on youtube or something similar, with such a name that anyone that will google her name will find it :)

shrek>> they (her superiors, the director of the center) just tried to get rid of me. Certainly they knew she screwed up, but it was easier to clean the mess by eliminating me (my position was temporary and according to my contract they could terminate it anytime with no explanation, and that is exactly what happenned). And of course I did not receive salary for September!

[inthelab]

What am I missing? September 2010 not happen yet.

[mircenzo]

I meant 2009.

[mozman]

mozman>> I am not in the middle-east :) and this event happened in USA! I think you are right though, nobody did/will care. That's why nobody tried to stop her. But still, sometimes when I am still mad at her... I think that she would be harmed in one way or another if I post the audio file, say on youtube or something similar, with such a name that anyone that will google her name will find it :)

shrek>> they (her superiors, the director of the center) just tried to get rid of me. Certainly they knew she screwed up, but it was easier to clean the mess by eliminating me (my position was temporary and according to my contract they could terminate it anytime with no explanation, and that is exactly what happenned). And of course I did not receive salary for September!

You put that recording up on Youtube and identify her by name and I guarantee you are opening yourself up to a liable suit, and possible wiretap charges depending on your state.  Don't do it.

Of course its easier to solve the problems by getting rid of you.  You are nothing in the hierarchical scheme of things.  And no one will believe you over her, so don't try it.  You will just look bad.

I fired my first post-doc.  Post doc has said some pretty nasty things about me.  This hasn't hurt my career one whit.  Being fired did not hurt the post-doc's career (beyond not getting a letter from me). 

Saying nasty about me to the wrong people has hurt the post-docs career considerably - they will never get an academic job in the states because they offended the wrong people (bigwigs who know me and who are my strong supporters).  Game over.

Let it go.  All you will do if you pursue this track is hurt yourself.  Your former supervisor is untouchable to you.

[scampster]

Mircenzo, listen to mozman.

It's fun to play out the revenge fantasies in your head, but the best revenge you can probably get is to be a successful scholar. If you were really the only reason she has publications recently, then she might wash out on her own (as I am guessing that if she is "launching a tenure track career" that she was in a research position and has moved into a position where she now has to earn tenure).

[mircenzo]

Let it go.  All you will do if you pursue this track is hurt yourself.  Your former supervisor is untouchable to you.

You are right, and I know that. This is more of a fantasy anyway...

I fired my first post-doc.  Post doc has said some pretty nasty things about me.  This hasn't hurt my career one whit.  Being fired did not hurt the post-doc's career (beyond not getting a letter from me). 

Saying nasty about me to the wrong people has hurt the post-docs career considerably - they will never get an academic job in the states because they offended the wrong people (bigwigs who know me and who are my strong supporters).  Game over.

Out of curiosity, did I misunderstand you?
- your first post-doc said nasty things about you, you fired this person, but she did not get hurt.
- And then other post-docs continued to say nasty things about you, this time to wrong persons and they got hurt.

If my understanding is correct:
- why do your post-docs keep telling nasty things about you?
- And the most important, how does anybody get supported by bigwigs  (I am seriously wondering) :)

[mozman]

Let it go.  All you will do if you pursue this track is hurt yourself.  Your former supervisor is untouchable to you.

You are right, and I know that. This is more of a fantasy anyway...

I fired my first post-doc.  Post doc has said some pretty nasty things about me.  This hasn't hurt my career one whit.  Being fired did not hurt the post-doc's career (beyond not getting a letter from me). 

Saying nasty about me to the wrong people has hurt the post-docs career considerably - they will never get an academic job in the states because they offended the wrong people (bigwigs who know me and who are my strong supporters).  Game over.

Out of curiosity, did I misunderstand you?
- your first post-doc said nasty things about you, you fired this person, but she did not get hurt.
- And then other post-docs continued to say nasty things about you, this time to wrong persons and they got hurt.

If my understanding is correct:
- why do your post-docs keep telling nasty things about you?
- And the most important, how does anybody get supported by bigwigs  (I am seriously wondering) :)

No, maybe I wasn't clear - its all the same post-doc.  I have had no problems with anyone else, just this one guy.  I don't know what his problem was, other than he had an extremely inflated sense of his own qualifications and couldn't stand it that I was younger than he was.

How do you get bigwigs to support you?  (1) network your ass off and (2) do awesome impressive research.  It helps to have a well-connected PhD adviser to get a foot in the door, but its not sufficient in of itself.  You still have to impress these people once you meet them.

[mozman]

No, maybe I wasn't clear - its all the same post-doc.  I have had no problems with anyone else, just this one guy.  I don't know what his problem was, other than he had an extremely inflated sense of his own qualifications and couldn't stand it that I was younger than he was.

I think I am still not being clear here.  He was not hurt by being fired - this happens to many people and most find a new job.

He was hurt by badmouthing me to the wrong people.

[mircenzo]

How do you get bigwigs to support you?  (1) network your ass off and (2) do awesome impressive research.  It helps to have a well-connected PhD adviser to get a foot in the door, but its not sufficient in of itself.  You still have to impress these people once you meet them.

Thanks for your answer, now I gotta go do some impressive job ;)

[shamu]

Just to add some potentially relevant pieces of information to the discussion. I think what the OP may have experienced was (at least partially) due to some cultural differences.

Before I go on, I want to make it clear that I do not know your full situation, so I cannot comment on the actions of your supervisor. This is mere a side note about how academia works in the US.

CONTEXT
Technically, you were correct, OP that if you have no work visa, you may not be able to work. However, our jobs in academia do not involve punching in and we are not paid by the hour. Some weeks, I work 80 hours, other weeks only 40, but technically, I am a full-time employee, supposedly getting paid for full time work (about 40 hours). I put in more hours than that; sometimes considerably more. I am also not getting paid for summer work (unless I get a grant). Do I stop working in the summer? No. I still love my job, even though there is no overtime and we also don't get bonuses like people in other fields. Rightfully or not, that is how it is.

Another example is when I start a new academic job, I move in July and start setting up well before mid-August or September (yes, many states start paying as of September 1, and teaching begins in mid-August). I never not taught the first two weeks of classes waiting for payroll to kick in.

OP's SITUATION:
I'm not saying your supervisor was right or wrong, but maybe she was expecting more investment on your part in your joint project. Now, no one should be suggesting breaking any laws, but maybe there was some cultural misunderstanding. Use this as a learning experience and when you get an academic position here, be prepared to start a little sooner than the clock starts ;-)

Good luck!