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[1applicant]

I am little worried that one of my referees (my graduate advisor) might be sabotaging my search with a negative or perhaps just "luke-warm" letter.  He said that he would write me a positive letter of support, but I know for a fact that he has sabotaged others with negative letters (I have seen these letters about others myself.)  I asked him specifically if he felt he could write a positive letter of support, and he said he could, but I still have a hard time trusting him because of the negative letters he's written for others and some past disagreements we've had. 

Is there a way that I can contact an institution I've applied to and view my file?  If so, should I do this before or after that institution concludes its search?  Is there another completely ethical way to gain access to my own "letters of support?"  I feel it will look strange if my application files don't contain a letter from him since we have so many joint publications, so I want to keep him as a referee if he has honored his word about a positive letter.  On the other hand, I have many other people who would be happy to write me extremely positive letters if he isn't able to do so for some reason.

Please advise.  Thank you for any comments and suggestions.

[canuckois]

You can't contact an institution and ask to see your own letters of reference, no.  Apart from being a gross breach of protocol, it would send up all kinds of red flags.

Paranoia is the worst enemy of any job applicant.  Suspecting sabotage is poor grounds to do anything.  If you want to add an extra, glowing letter from another referee, then do so; most searches won't penalize you for adding an extra letter.  But you're right: a crappy letter (or no letter at all) from your advisor will cripple you.  Period.  You say you've asked him.  Have you been so blunt as to say, "Look, I need a strong letter from you.  Can you do that for me?  If you can't, I need to know now."

At this point, you have far more to lose from a sh!tty letter than you do worrying about your advisor's respect, such as it is.

[polly_mer]

The only ethical way to see the letter that your reference is writing is to ask to see it.

If you are worried that your reference is not sending positive letters, then don't ask that person to send letters for you.  If you can get other letters that will be positive, then why insist that this person write letters for you?

The search engine will turn up unethical ways to find out what your letter writer is writing since we've had umpty-million discussion on the topic.  However, if you can't trust that your letter writer will tell you the truth, then why would you wish to affiliated with such a person since others in the field also surely know about the reputation for torpedoing people by writing poor letters of recommendation and anyone who is outside the field who receives such a letter will not think well of you or your recommender?

[1applicant]

Thank you for your responses.  I know that it would look very odd not to have a letter form him, and I did ask point blank (via email) if he would write a "strong" letter of support.  So, my insecurity arises mainly because he frequently does not tell the truth.  Trust me, if I had realized more about his personality up front, I never would have worked in his group.  I'm many years past that fork in the road, however, so I have to make the best of my current situation.  I wish I could ask him in person, as then I would know from body language. 

People who dislike him (for whatever reason) are likely to be biased against me whether or not he sends a letter because of our joint publications.  People who do like him will discount me if I don't have a letter from him.  I am doomed in general if he sends a negative letter, so that's why I feel the need to check.  I realize that I shouldn't be so paranoid, and I don't worry at all about what my other referees are writing.       

[polly_mer]

People who do like him will discount me if I don't have a letter from him. 

If you really have that many publications with this guy and the people reading your materials otherwise like what they see, then they will call this guy to get the scoop on you, whether or not you have an official letter from him.  Not having a letter on file from him may not be the kiss of death that you think it is unless this guy is a huge name in the field and few students or junior collaborators.  In my field, it's pretty common to have worked with a big name in the past and not have a letter for job searches that occur later after one has left the group. 

It's also pretty common for everyone to know the inside scoop on contentious people so that working with one of those people isn't the kiss of death because the people who end up without a letter are often those who didn't completely share the ideals.  So it's a win with people who don't like that guy to not include a letter.

[1applicant]

Thanks, Polly.  That makes me feel a bit better. 

He is a huge name, and there are people who adore him and people who absolutely loathe him.  I hadn't thought about it being a plus with the "loathing" group to omit asking him for a letter, but you're probably right about that.  For anyone neutral (generally this would be someone who hasn't met him) it would look really strange for it to be missing.  Also, I know that it would really piss him off to get a phone call and realize that I wasn't asking him for letters anymore.  Can I risk being cast out of the empire?

[polly_mer]

Can I risk being cast out of the empire?

Do you want to continue to be part of the empire?

Are you sure that you are currently part of the empire after asking this guy if he would write you a good letter of recommendation and your fears about whether he is actually writing you a good letter of recommendation?

If your guy is anything like some of the guys with whom I have worked, merely asking the pointed question has already put you on the naughty list.  I don't think neglecting to ask for more letters will necessarily make the situation worse, especially if you can spin it as "Oh, Dr. Big Name.  You're just so busy and I felt so guilty about asking for all those letters last round that I decided to lean on my other collaborators for this round."

[1applicant]

That is exactly how I would have to spin it.  Sad, isn't it?  Haha, maybe we've worked for the same guy!

Obviously I am not sure that I still have a key to the servant's entrance of the Empire.  It's sad, too, as he once admitted that I was his most prolific student.  I should probably just ask his main secretary to let me know if I have anything to worry about.  Not sure how I would phrase that, though.

[larryc]

The only ethical way to see the letter that your reference is writing is to ask to see it.

And the best unethical way to do it is to ask him to send the letter to a head of a search committee that actually turns out to be some buddy of yours with an academic address.

I'm not saying you should do it, I'm just sayin'.

[polly_mer]

That is exactly how I would have to spin it.  Sad, isn't it?  Haha, maybe we've worked for the same guy!

Everyone has worked for that guy or his counterpart in every field.  It's not sad; it's just life.  The sooner you learn to phrase these things in the appropriate ways for the small stuff, the easier it will be on you.

Obviously I am not sure that I still have a key to the servant's entrance of the Empire.  It's sad, too, as he once admitted that I was his most prolific student.  I should probably just ask his main secretary to let me know if I have anything to worry about.  Not sure how I would phrase that, though.

You're not on excellent terms with the main secretary and don't have anyone else inside the empire who will funnel you information?  You don't have to ask; you definitely don't still have a key to the servant's entrance to the empire.  The question at this point is whether the guy acknowledges you at conferences and such if someone else could be looking.

LarryC is right about the most efficient, unethical way to see the letter.  However, in a reasonably small field (and they are all small fields), it would be likely and very, very bad for anyone who tried this for the letter writer to meet the recipient at the next conference under an introduction by one of his buddies as "my best post-doc" or "our new hire this year".  It is also very likely and very bad for the candidate if the letter writer calls up his buddy at the school in question and say, "About this search that you're running, I have a better candidate for you" and discover that no such search is underway. 

The most unlikely way to be caught would be to have a confederate at a school which is beneath notice for Dr. Big Shot, but then you run the risk that Dr. Big Shot sends a bad letter to that school only in an effort to help you not be "trapped" at some school that is beneath you (and that definitely happens if Dr. Big Shot still has enough ego invested in you to find only a handful of positions acceptable).

If the ethics don't sway you, then think about the practicalities.

[quoog]

You can do something a lot less radical but on similar lines to what larryc suggested. If you know a faculty member at any institution doing a job search, you can send your file there and he can just indicate to you if you're receiving a negative recommendation letter. One time I got a negative letter and at a conference one of the professors there volunteered this information even though I didn't ask or even really know him at the time;  professors can often be sympathetic to students whose careers are being sabotaged in this way.

[kaybro]

I found out what my letters were like in a similar way.  I applied for many many jobs and wasn't even getting interviews.  I did start to wonder whether my letters were raising red flags.  I then applied to a department where a grad school friend was chair, and without mentioning specifics, he told me that my letters were about as good as they could be.  This allowed me to confidently continue to ask for letters from these folks, and I did eventually get a good position at a good place. 

And yes, I do think that my friend would have discreetly let me know if he thought I might have wanted to reconsider using one of my references. 

[1applicant]

Thanks, everyone, for all of the ideas.

I am on excellent terms with his secretary, but that conversation would still be awkward, wouldn't it?  I also have a good friend on the inside who could "snoop" for me if that were the type of thing I would condone.

I think I will just apply to some real open positions at places where I am on strong terms with some of the faculty, then casually ask one of them if there is anything in my packet that I should consider changing or improving.  That way, they can make a suggestion they might want to give me about something like my cover letter, but they also have a clear opening to warn me about anything else.  Hopefully I will find something like that to apply to this spring, before the big rush of postings that will come at the end of summer and in the fall.

Posted by: polly_mer: you run the risk that Dr. Big Shot sends a bad letter to that school only in an effort to help you not be "trapped" at some school that is beneath you (and that definitely happens if Dr. Big Shot still has enough ego invested in you to find only a handful of positions acceptable).

This is also a potential difficulty.  He and I have had some major differences of opinion about where I apply and what type of position I should consider.  I've tried to explain my interests and point of view to him, but it seems clear that he has trouble looking at things from perspectives other than the perspective of his own direct benefit/prestige.  He has gone so far as to say that he will only support a certain type of search, and there are places that he definitely thinks are beneath him (I mean me!)