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[dundee]

mathspice, I certainly try to be supportive and do my fair share as a husband and father. I am also married to a tough woman who won't accept anything less, so I'll admit that I'm not always doing 50/50 by choice! Researching and writing is often more appealing than playing with dolls ...

Someone made a comment upthread about dads attending moms' groups and not sticking around ... when I was a full-time stay-at-home-dad I tried a few moms' groups and never felt welcome. It was weird being the only guy there, and most of the women just ignored me. I'm not sure if they didn't respect my choice, or if they thought I might be trying to hit on them, or what ... but I was never given any incentive to keep attending.

[allye]

Is it weird that I feel like my life is easier with two kids?  Kid #1 was super-interactive and high-maintenance (though very fun); baby #2 is mellow mellow mellow.  I can actually work around her pretty well when I'm working at home.  Just sayin.

[ellaminnow]

Dundee, I'm sure my husband can relate...he is currently full-time at home with the kids.  It is absolutely stunning how many times our female friends will call, asking for me, to join their various moms group.  Husband is usually the one who fields these calls because I am usually working and they have never extended the invitation to him.  I'm not sure what's up with that.  It really bums him out because he could use the adult conversations and he is very social.  

[thenewyorker]

Dundee, I was talking about on-line groups. I belong to two and dads post a lot when they first join and then it tapers off. I am not sure why since they get the same kinds of responses as the moms do. It was just an observation. My husband has also felt a bit out of place when we go to some mommy/baby groups. He feels awkward when he is the only dad there. I think its too bad since he is home with baby Thursday and Friday and he need to socialize and get out of the house, too!

[marigolds]

Someone made a comment upthread about dads attending moms' groups and not sticking around ... when I was a full-time stay-at-home-dad I tried a few moms' groups and never felt welcome. It was weird being the only guy there, and most of the women just ignored me. I'm not sure if they didn't respect my choice, or if they thought I might be trying to hit on them, or what ... but I was never given any incentive to keep attending.

My husband has this exact experience.  He says that he feels like the moms huddle in the corner and look suspiciously at him.  It's hard for him, because Sprout is in preschool MWF mornings and home with dad during the afternoons and T/Th.

Personally, I love stay at home dads! 

[dundee]

thenewyorker, sorry for misinterpreting your post. I'm glad to hear that other dad's had similar experiences with moms'/parents', and that it's not just me.

[tolerantly]

He needs this: http://rebeldad.com/

[drpud]

Speaking of men feeling awkward:

My husband (aka baby daddy) was once looked at suspiciously by a group of middle-aged women at a park playground and then asked to leave, because the playground was for "families and children ONLY." They apparently didn't realize the cute toddler running about saying "Look Daddy!" was his child.

On the other hand, he has also been praised for being so "extraordinary" and "such an amazing dad" for actually taking his kid to the park on his own. He found this even more annoying. My partner feels that it is a shame that what men should be doing as a matter of daily parental life is taken as a sign of exemplary behavior. (Although he does point his amazingness out to me on occasion if I am complaining about something he didn't do . . .)

[dundee]

drpud, amen! I have had women practically award me "Father of the Year" status for changing a diaper - these are the same women whose husbands don't change diapers and don't know how to prepare a bottle of formula. Sometimes the expectations are just incredibly low. And yes, it's amazing how sometimes "family" means "mothers and children."

[drpud]

I know, dundee, the low expectations for modern dads can be very insulting to many men who are doing their fair share (or more than fair share). I have quite a few male friends and family members who are truly excellent, A+ dads, and strangers are always surprised or overly gushy about their role. And they have all gotten the families=women and children treatment at some point.

One of my good female friends has a non-academic husband who decided to quit his job and stay home with their child until she is 3 or so. He is perfectly happy with his house-dad role at the moment and couldn't give a toss about what other people think. The more dads/families like this, ready and willing to do what needs to be done without concern for societal expectations or prejudices, the better . . .

[navelgazer]

I know, dundee, the low expectations for modern dads can be very insulting to many men who are doing their fair share (or more than fair share). I have quite a few male friends and family members who are truly excellent, A+ dads, and strangers are always surprised or overly gushy about their role. And they have all gotten the families=women and children treatment at some point.

One of my good female friends has a non-academic husband who decided to quit his job and stay home with their child until she is 3 or so. He is perfectly happy with his house-dad role at the moment and couldn't give a toss about what other people think. The more dads/families like this, ready and willing to do what needs to be done without concern for societal expectations or prejudices, the better . . .

I think this is awesome that your friend's husband did this. However, for those of us that are married to men who value their careers just as much as we value you ours: Can the world in general (no Dr. Pud) please stop suggesting that the only way for career success is to convince our husbands to stay home?!?! (This has happened 2xs in the past month offline.)

[drpud]

Yes, I know, this would never happen in my family either (man staying home). I was just using it as an ex. of the role some modern dads are actually playing in academic families where the TT woman/mother has not necessarily the most high-powered career in the relationship but the job most easily lost or undermined through time off. Such a situation isn't a realistic option for most people but I think there are more and more men doing part-time childcare at home while maintaining jobs.

In my family both of us would like careers, we really need the money resulting from dual incomes, and neither of us has the personality to stay home with a toddler 24-7, which is why I now realize how fabulous childcare is.

Oh, darn it, my child has awoken from naptime and is demanding me. Productivity is over. . .

[niceday]

A friend just sent me this article which had this pertinent point about the tension between the embodied relationship (after all, it is the woman who can get pregnant and breastfeed) and the social set up where we expect and value equal/more parenting by men:

This, however, is not 'the paradox of natural mothering' that Chris Bobel (2002) discusses in her book with this title. For Bobel, a feminist sociologist who believes in affordable daycare and other options that enable mothers to work in the paid labor force, the paradox lies in the fact that natural mothers must lodge themselves firmly at the center of their children's lives, replicating patriarchal family roles, whilst insisting that they seek progressive social change through their childrearing practices. Bobel (2002, pp. 26-27) also sees in natural mothers a paradox of resisting mainstream cultural beliefs about parenting only to accept uncritically a biologically determinist belief in naturalism. For example, one mother in Bobel's (2002) study explains:

    [M]other Nature has given woman the position of bringing the next generation to fruition in her own body and, in addition to that, has provided her body with the ability to nourish and nurture that infant, at least until the age of one—literally nourish until the age of one. I believe that. I did it. So, then, why should it be wrong for the woman to continue in that role (p. 87)?

For an STS scholar and a poststructuralist feminist like me, the paradox was different. I am not a cultural feminist who believes women are instinctually more nurturing or intuitive than men. I do not think women are naturally good mothers. Moreover, my STS knowledge and my own difficulties as a virgin breastfeeder made it impossible for me to believe I was doing what comes naturally. While breastfeeding promises to be low- or anti-tech and to allow a mother to escape the trappings of experts and institutions who tell women what to do with their bodies, in reality it requires a great deal of commitment, expert intervention, social learning, and technology.

The article is "Got Milk?: Breastfeeding as an 'Incurably Informed' Feminist STS Scholar" by Martha McCaughey.
Link at www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a919720895. PM me if you'd like full text.

[nontrad_jr]

Can I join?  I'm in the middle of the tenure process (good review from dean and colleagues but no faculty vote yet) and have a 2 yr old.

DH is in an hourly wage job so when something had to be done in the middle of the day, it's me or we lose money.  It stinks but we do have more balance than most.  DH picks the little one up most days from his afternoon daycare but this all means that we spend most of the time being single parents or working and only see each other for an hour a day (I often work nights to make up for the time so I get home 8:30 or 9 and the little one gets up at 6).  We thought that we'd go for #2 once I get tenure but I can't imagine how it would possibly work.  We have no paid parental leave and I just cannot imagine not having any down time.

I think that mommy/daddy friends are key as is someone you can trust to come over and sit in your home while little one is sleeping.  If you are lucky enough to have family near (we do) or friends (we did) or college students who will work for cheap and free wifi (we do) it can make the difference between staying sane and throwing toddlers out the window.

[rambling]

niceday this is very interesting. I will PM you for the fulltext, but I also wanted to say out loud here that this sounds like some of my thoughts about breastfeeding. I do love the bonding and the fact that I can provide for my baby and so on and very now and then it does feel like it is rebellion against "the man" or institutionalized / inhumane medicine or whatnot, but at the end of the day it does tie me down a lot, and I sometimes wonder how feminist that makes me. OK, as usual I am rambling, and I do not think I have put my thoughts into words accurately, but this has touched a soft spot. I will PM you.