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[profpinata]

I'm in my fifth semester as an adjunct teaching English comp. and rhetoric at the small liberal arts school where I got my BA. I have an MFA in Creative Writing and am employed full time as a print journalist at a large newspaper (about as secure as being a realtor at this stage of the game). My last kid is about to leave the nest and it's now or never time for me -- I very much want to pursue a doctorate but am torn between investigating a PhD in English lit or rhetoric. A few of the tenured faculty with whom I work have told me that a PhD is a waste of time, that my MFA is enough to teach writing courses -- but I really do want to spend the rest of my working years as an academic and pursue TT employment. I think my "colleagues" don't take me seriously because I'm just an adjunct with a fluffy MFA and some of them have been around long enough to remember me as an undergrad (I am 45).

Advice anyone would be kind enough to send my way would be very much appreciated. How would you advise an MFA grad student regarding post-grad academic plans with an eye toward employment opportunities?  I realize I'm probably not being realistic here due to my age, and if that's the case, please let me know, but I'm looking at being in the workforce for another 20 years (or more, who knows), so I figure why not go for what you really want?

Thanks--P 

[yellowtractor]

1) An MFA without substantial publication credits will not in any way substitute for, much less compete with, a Ph.D.  (By the way, we've had multiple threads recently about MFA's in the academic marketplace.)

If you want a tenure-track line, you will need an MFA with substantial publication credits and teaching experience, or a Ph.D.   Pretty much period.

2) Financially, are you in a position to subsist at graduate student wages (or less) for the several additional years it will take to earn a Ph.D.?  Also:  can you pursue a Ph.D.--of any sort--close to home?  If you can't, relocating will be a major consideration. 

3) We've also had a number of threads about pursuing a Ph.D. and/or tenure-track employment relatively late in life.  I'm sure many wise forumites will chime in on this aspect of your situation too.

[alleyoxenfree]

By the time you finish the Ph.D. and publish at least two books, you will not be hired TT based on your age alone.

Unless you win the National Book Award or Pulitzer.  In which case, you will not have needed the Ph.D.

[zuzu_]

Have you seen this article?

http://chronicle.com/article/Graduate-School-in-the-Huma/44846/

[ahsonek]

By the time you finish the Ph.D. and publish at least two books, you will not be hired TT based on your age alone.

Wow - so only 20 somethings are allowed to get doctorates and go for tenure track positions? 

I don't know anything about MFA except I have met some that teach our composition courses, so I cannot recommend a course of action..... But if you find that you need the doctorate - and you are willing to get it even with the current hiring situation, then please do it.

From another 45 year old working on her doctorate......

[alleyoxenfree]

By the time you finish the Ph.D. and publish at least two books, you will not be hired TT based on your age alone.

Wow - so only 20 somethings are allowed to get doctorates and go for tenure track positions? 

I don't know anything about MFA

If you have read any of the fora, you will see that this is not a controversial view, or even one that search committees are apologetic about, and particularly in the arts where younger faculty are assumed to be a better "fit" with hip, young artists.  It can be a painful reality.

Further, if you look at the jobhunting threads in particular, you will find that those who are experienced and have been on the market a few years, or who are returning to the market, have dramatically fewer interviews in this economic climate than even ABDs.  No one believes that this will change, short of the Second Coming, if Jesus brings a big budget increase with Him.

And if you were to look at the AWP listings of who is hired each year to fill MFA/Ph.D. teaching slots in creative writing, you would be quite hard-pressed to find anyone in your age category or this OPs category who is hired.  That is nothing to note with pleasure but it is realistic.  The exception can be VAP positions, which usually go for one or two years at a time to a "name" author - someone who has won a major award and who doesn't teach all the time and isn't seeking a TT slot.

If the OP has family money or a well-heeled spouse, he should do whatever he finds fun.  However, he asked a practical question and he is getting responses in an honest and realistic way.

Good luck to you in your field.  I hope it is different for you. 

[yellowtractor]

OP, do you care to chime back in?  You say

I realize I'm probably not being realistic here due to my age,

but realism in this instance has to do with many factors beyond age.  What are the economic and/or geographical constraints you are facing?  How will a decision to pursue Ph.D. coursework in either rhet/comp or lit work within these constraints?  You don't address either of these crucial issues in your query.

It is true that a tenure-track job in lit or creative writing will require fairly major publications in addition to both the degree and your teaching experience.  You also don't address this in your original query.  Do you in fact have substantial publications, or don't you?  If you do:  creative work, lit crit, rhet/comp, some mix?  If you don't, how do you feel about the extra time it will take to crank those out?  And how is rhet/comp different, if it is?

Frankly, it would help the rest of us to advise you--not to mention avoid unprofitable sniping--if we knew just a little bit more about your circumstances.

[profpinata]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone, very much appreciated. In response to yellowtractor:

I am financially able to pursue a doctorate and can relocate to do so (I live in the Southeast).

I have published beyond my print journalism career but it has been minimal, mostly white papers on human capital issues that I developed while working for a nonprofit think tank. I have a nonfiction manuscript that has been accepted for publication by a southern university press and also a collection of short stories that I am about to start sending out. Is this substantial? Probably not (yet).

I have noticed what I perceived to be a certain amount of ageism in the culture where I currently teach but I had hoped it was my sensitivity to the issue that tuned me in to it. So I appreciate the candor here regarding my age and my prospects for future employment in higher ed because I am at a crossroads.

The comments here make me think I should give up on the Ph.D. goal and pursue publication with rigor. Most of the folks I know who are presently teaching in MFA programs have MFAs and have published, but my ultimate goal is not teaching in an MFA program. I had hoped to teach literature and composition and perhaps teach abroad (am fluent in German).  But these sorts of jobs almost always require a Ph.D.

 

[yellowtractor]

Prof. P., if you really have the ability (financially and geographically) to do this, alongside the desire, why not?

Yes, there is ageism, but some schools also value nontraditional Ph.D.'s (my SLAC being among them).  If you have the MFA and teaching experience and a book in press (The Book, in academic job search terms), then you are already qualified to go on the job market...though the MFA alone will not qualify you for lit jobs, and as I understand it t.t. rhet/comp positions do increasingly require a Ph.D. in rhet/comp.

In sum:  it sounds as if you're qualified to pursue t.t. positions in creative nonfiction, but not in lit or rhet/comp.  If you want lit or rhet/comp, you'll need to pursue the Ph.D.  If you want creative nonfiction, keep adjuncting as you can and pump up that publication record.

If you want an overseas position, you may find that the bars are somewhat lower.  On the other hand, teaching overseas as an American academic is fraught with its own problems.  See the threads on this site on teaching in the Middle East, Korea, etc.

[post_functional]

By the time you finish the Ph.D. and publish at least two books, you will not be hired TT based on your age alone.

Wow - so only 20 somethings are allowed to get doctorates and go for tenure track positions? 

I don't know anything about MFA

If you have read any of the fora, you will see that this is not a controversial view, or even one that search committees are apologetic about, and particularly in the arts where younger faculty are assumed to be a better "fit" with hip, young artists.  It can be a painful reality.

It's also a stupid reality.  "Hip, young" art is often superficial art.  Depth in art comes with a little life experience.

[alleyoxenfree]

By the time you finish the Ph.D. and publish at least two books, you will not be hired TT based on your age alone.

Wow - so only 20 somethings are allowed to get doctorates and go for tenure track positions? 

I don't know anything about MFA

If you have read any of the fora, you will see that this is not a controversial view, or even one that search committees are apologetic about, and particularly in the arts where younger faculty are assumed to be a better "fit" with hip, young artists.  It can be a painful reality.

It's also a stupid reality.  "Hip, young" art is often superficial art.  Depth in art comes with a little life experience.

Too true.

[dellaroux]

Folks with a background in rhetoric in particular around here might have some helpful input as well.

You might try using the upper-menu-bar search function (as opposed to the lower-right-hand-even-more-dysfunctional one) with "rhetoric" alone to see if you find any more targeted info.

Bon chance...or viele gluck...as you prefer...

[compdoc]

Ageism exists and makes a difference. One interview I was told the search committee thought I was too old. (I was 47.)

Definitely, if you have publications you will be more marketable. That is true at any age.

One chair told me if I had a good UP book, it wouldn't matter that I was old.

I'm not working full-time, so I may not be the best person to ask. I have a PhD in rhet/comp... It is not as valuable as people thought it would be when I went to get my PhD. It is, however, sometimes requested/required.

[ahsonek]

Well, I am glad that I am in a field with a programmatic accrediation that requires real world experience at the managerial level before getting the TT position.... So, there are lots of 35-50 year olds working on their doctorate for this field.....

I feel bad for those who have to be young.....

[allye]

I work in a music department where a 50-something year-old woman just go a tenure-track job in music ed after completing her doctorate.  She had been working as a special-purpose employee for a year while ABD.   She had had a career teaching K-12 before that.