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msparticularity
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« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2010, 07:42:22 PM » |
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OP, I am not understanding the level of concern you seem to have about the language issue. As several others have pointed out to you here, institutions invariably have their own legal people and their own language for offer letters. While you should certainly pursue getting all of the elements of your offer in writing, it's very difficult to see why you think you should make specific suggestions as to the language in which these will be conveyed.
Is there some specific area in which you are afraid there will be ambivalence or misunderstanding?
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"Once admit that the sole verifiable or fruitful object of knowledge is the particular set of changes that generate the object of study...and no intelligible question can be asked about what, by assumption, lies outside." John Dewey
"Be particular." Jill Conner Browne
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sher2824
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« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2010, 09:31:49 PM » |
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Hi seniorscholar and msparticularity. Thanks for your feedback. I appreciate everyone's input, and agree that in most situations what's been described by many would probably bear out. To clarify the "language" concern: I wanted to be able to say what I wanted in a standard way. Perhaps there is no standard way, but perhaps there are ways. This doesn't seem any different than finding the best (or better) ways of talking about your research or teaching. And although that might strike some as strange, the reality I faced when I called and asked about things I expected to be in the offer letter played out just as I thought they would in this case. I was in fact told to write up what I wanted in an email, and we would work from that. Having an example to work from would have been nice, and that's all I was seeking. But I muddled through and wrote it.
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blackbart
After lurking for eons, finally a
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Posts: 101
Amazed I'm paid for what I do.
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2010, 10:09:39 PM » |
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I was in fact told to write up what I wanted in an email, and we would work from that. Having an example to work from would have been nice, and that's all I was seeking. But I muddled through and wrote it.
Here you go: Dear Kindhearted Dean: As you requested in our phone conversation of February 8, I am providing below a list of specific items I hope can be addressed in the university's official letter offering me employment. Start-up funds in the amount of eighty million dollars (small bills are fine). Release from all teaching duties until tenure is achieved. On-campus housing for my border collie, Tank. I look forward to receiving a revised version of the letter and to beginning my illustrious career at Generous U. Please contact me if there are further questions about these items. Love, Blackbart [Is that what you were looking for? If so, what makes such a message difficult (no snark intended)? If not, then what are you looking for?]
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"The more the words, the less the meaning, and how does that profit anyone?"
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madhatter
We proudly present the fora's Least
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Posts: 5,673
Just killing time
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« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2010, 12:49:37 PM » |
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I was in fact told to write up what I wanted in an email, and we would work from that. Having an example to work from would have been nice, and that's all I was seeking. But I muddled through and wrote it.
Here you go: Dear Kindhearted Dean: As you requested in our phone conversation of February 8, I am providing below a list of specific items I hope can be addressed in the university's official letter offering me employment. Start-up funds in the amount of eighty million dollars (small bills are fine). Release from all teaching duties until tenure is achieved. On-campus housing for my border collie, Tank. I look forward to receiving a revised version of the letter and to beginning my illustrious career at Generous U. Please contact me if there are further questions about these items. Love, Blackbart [Is that what you were looking for? If so, what makes such a message difficult (no snark intended)? If not, then what are you looking for?] Blackbart's exactly right. I might add a few wet sloppy kisses in the form of expressions of gratitude and enthusiasm.
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"I may be an evil scientist, but it doesn't take a degree purchased from the Internet with your ex-wife's money to know how special and important you are to me." -- Dr. Doofenschmirtz
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yellowtractor
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« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2010, 12:54:49 PM » |
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I was in fact told to write up what I wanted in an email, and we would work from that. Having an example to work from would have been nice, and that's all I was seeking. But I muddled through and wrote it.
Here you go: Dear Kindhearted Dean: As you requested in our phone conversation of February 8, I am providing below a list of specific items I hope can be addressed in the university's official letter offering me employment. Start-up funds in the amount of eighty million dollars (small bills are fine). Release from all teaching duties until tenure is achieved. On-campus housing for my border collie, Tank. I look forward to receiving a revised version of the letter and to beginning my illustrious career at Generous U. Please contact me if there are further questions about these items. Love, Blackbart [Is that what you were looking for? If so, what makes such a message difficult (no snark intended)? If not, then what are you looking for?] Blackbart's exactly right. I might add a few wet sloppy kisses in the form of expressions of gratitude and enthusiasm. Agreed. Adding a sentence (towards the end) along the lines of "I'm excited about your offer and look forward to working with you at Kissyface College" never hurt.
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i think is good for every one only the think is that we will always scares about that.
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punchnpie
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« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2010, 01:37:50 AM » |
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Oh my gosh. If you do this, please please please come back to tell us how it was received. Oh man, I laughed out loud at that one.Y'all are cruel. Yes, OP, (and I am a lawyer) do tell what happens after you change the wording in the offer letter. On a serious note, I had changes to my letter. The head of the SC and I discussed them over the phone and in email and a newly written contract - one that embodied the changes in the contract and not as amended language - came via the uni's legal office. You ain't rewriting nuthin', my friend.
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What about all them other professors aint they your kin? Good God, no. I loathe them and they loathe me. Sunset Limited
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regular_joe
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« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2010, 09:17:05 AM » |
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I think I know where OP's thinking comes from. Herb Cohen wrote a book called You Can Negotiate Anything, in which he discusses among other things negotiating contracts. He notes that most people would never think of crossing out or adding lines to a legal contract presented by a prospective employer, contractor, car dealer, etc., but that contracts are always negotiable and we should never just accept what is first offered us.
This sounds fine for other types of contracts, but academic deans, chairs, and the like generally have a negative view toward negotiating (some feeling that they are in the rarefied and pure atmosphere of the life of the mind and therefore above haggling over filthy lucre) and don't like to do much of it. And the idea of a candidate being so "presumptuous" as to alter the offered letter (contract) is too much for some to handle. Much of this attitude, I think, comes from the glut of qualified candidates for each available job. Employers do not have to negotiate (much) with candidates, especially in the arts and humanities, so they do it only minimally and balk when a candidate doesn't just fall all over himself rushing to agree to less than favorable conditions.
These days in this economy many schools have a take-it-or-leave-it attitude with candidates. "We'll just go on to the next one in line if this one gives us too much of a hassle" is a common refrain.
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galactic_hedgehog
Procrastinating, Python-quoting, Blue Blazer-drinking, chocolate-chip cookie-eating, Pastafarian, Not So
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Posts: 18,564
Mind Ninja
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« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2010, 11:53:08 AM » |
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I think I know where OP's thinking comes from. Herb Cohen wrote a book called You Can Negotiate Anything, in which he discusses among other things negotiating contracts. He notes that most people would never think of crossing out or adding lines to a legal contract presented by a prospective employer, contractor, car dealer, etc., but that contracts are always negotiable and we should never just accept what is first offered us.
Where's Zharkov when we need him?
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Your professors were probably afraid of your galactic genius and did everything they could (behind the scenes) to thwart your hedginess. Hedgie loves to read.
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laurel_knx
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« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2010, 12:35:57 PM » |
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OP- I actually did find a sample offer letter in the super-awesome book you should have had all along: The Academic Job Search Handbook by Julia Miller Vick & Jennifer S. Furlong.
Pages 213-215 have an unofficial email letter and an official letter (use Amazon to take a peek). It's just a couple of examples, so not too useful, but it's something
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punchnpie
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« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2010, 07:04:12 PM » |
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I'm fine with negotiating changes in a contract. I'm not so fine with the OP thinking he was going to dictate the language to the SC or legal department.
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What about all them other professors aint they your kin? Good God, no. I loathe them and they loathe me. Sunset Limited
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goat_herd
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Posts: 30
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« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2010, 12:19:22 PM » |
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OP, as someone going through the same process, I concur with the advice given by others. Do not mark up the actual letter. After receiving my draft offer letter, I have simply emailed the Chair and asked if it would be possible to: a) amend line "XXXX" to reflect "YYYY" b) include language in paragraph "B" to include something to the effect of "ZZZ" The Chair responded promptly and positively to my requests and let me know what the new language would say, and then said that he'd send the altered draft to higher Admin for approval. Bottom line, ask informally and it will be ironed out formally by the lawyers. As to samples of offer letters, I suggest entering "sample academic offer letter" into The Google. You are familiar with The Google, no? (i snark because i care!) www.training.nih.gov/trainees/documents/academic-offer-example.pdfprovost.illinois.edu/communication/02/Comm02_attach2.pdf
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