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[beth2010]

Hi, I've posted this on a couple of different boards looking for all the advice I can get. I'm hoping to get some insight from people experienced in this.

Here is my story. I graduated with an undergrad in English a year and a half ago. I had a decent gpa, 3.1 (nothing impressive). I was a decent student, but again, not exactly impressive. I have always been a little introverted, and never really made an effort to speak out in class or talk to my professors a lot, so I never got to know any of them well. Also, all through college I was supporting myself and in a very bad marriage. I was just stressed and stretched thin for my early 20's.

I was planning to become an English teacher, so immediately upon graduating I applied and was accepted into a master's program. The program did not require letters of recommendation, so I never even considered I would need them.

My first semester of graduate classes went smoothly, but I kept ignoring this feeling that teaching was not for me. My second semester came and I had to actually participate in a teaching internship. I realized that is was 100% not meant to be a teacher. Add on top of this that I was going through a divorce. I was the most stressed out I have ever been, couldn't eat or sleep, and had to withdraw from my classes.

I took the rest of that semester off, just working at my crummy retail job. I had planned to take an entire year off, but in the Fall (last semester) I decided to apply for a sociology program (that had been my minor and I was always intrigued). I took a semester of online classes, but then when I went to register for classes this semester found out that classes were being cut and there was no guarantee the classes I would need would be offered.

So I made the decision to spend this semester coming up with a new plan. I have always wanted to go into a Public Administration degree, and I am think I could do very well in this field. This has always been a very strong interest of mine and I feel that it will offer me a lot of career options.

I meet all the admissions requirements, except letters of recommendation.

I honestly don't know how to handle this issue. I can ask 2 of my undergraduate professors, but I don't know what they can say beyond "She got A's in my classes." One can be from an employer, and my supervisor has already offered to write one. However, this is a retail job and completely unrelated to the field of public administration.

At this point, is graduate school just not an option for me? I am embarrassed that I never got to know my professors, but my personal life stress was always a big distraction for me. I am very excited about moving to a new town, starting a new program, and a new life but I also feel that I shouldn't even bother because of the letters of recommendation.

Can anyone provide some advice on what I can do?

[msparticularity]

Is there someone in your master's program you  could ask? If you did fine in the classes, a faculty member might be able to comment upon your ability to handle grad-level work, and perhaps your maturity in realizing teaching was not for you.

[minorleaguer]

I think some folks on this forum will probably question your motivation for obtaining this degree.  The combination of your average GPA, and bouncing from graduate program to graduate program won't reflect terribly well on your record.  I would strongly consider taking some actual time away from school and considering your options.   

As to your question, if you're serious about obtaining these letters, you will have to take some steps to (re)introduce yourself to your professors.  As you seem to hint at, it is hard to write a terribly personal letter for a student who never visited office hours and rarely spoke up in class. 

Imagine that you're a faculty member.  You have dozens or (more likely) hundreds of students a year, and even the students who stand out at the time are often forgotten within a couple of semesters.  Don't get me wrong, I've had some great and very memorable students, but they typically are those that have come to office hours and worked especially hard on a particular project.  Those that are introverted are typically forgotten after the final grades are turned in.

I would write a very clear letter to your former professors.  In this letter, it would be advisable to explain what course you took with them and what semester you took the course.  I would explain what program you hope to apply for and include a link to the program guide.  I would attach a resume and maybe even a copy of your undergraduate transcripts.  Have your friends and family proof read this letter.

[georgiaprof]

Have you tried to get entry level work in the field or at least in something closely (or even vaguely) resembling the field?  I would be concerned that you will start this and decide that this, too, is not for you.

[beth2010]

Well my initial reasons for applying for the sociology degree was because I wanted to get into this field. It was supposed to include courses in policy analysis, grant writing, and an internship, but then I was told those might not be offered because of a lack of students wanting to take the classes. I just realized I was about to spend 20k on something that I might not be able to finish because of a lack of course options.

No, I haven't worked in the field. It's been a rough two years. I would love to take time off, but I have no money and I am stuck in a college town with virtually no job opportunities.

I am really looking for a fresh start. I guess I am also concerned that I won't even be accepted because I've switched twice.

I realize that my past decisions don't reflect well on my abilities. I just went through a pretty stressful early adulthood. I am now 26 with an English degree and 35k in debt because I spent 2 wasted years in graduate school. I guess I am at the point where my options are pretty limited.

[hegemony]

I think it would be unwise to go into debt in order to qualify for jobs that you may not even want when you're qualified.  I don't even think it's wise to go into debt to qualify for jobs that you do want.  It is a typical strategy for hesitant students -- especially women, who like defined structures toward careers (studies find) -- to try the "graduate school" method of getting a job.  But it is not actually the best method.  Much better that you should learn on the job, at an entry-level job (which pays you) than go deeply into debt for a job that may not be there when you graduate, and that you may not like if it's there.  If you get an entry-level job in something near your desired field, you can switch jobs and fields if you hate it.  If you've spent $30,000 preparing yourself for the job, the situation is more dire.  You already know the risks from the teaching experience.

You say there are no jobs in your town -- that would also be the case if you had a public policy degree, wouldn't it?  Even if some public policy jobs exist in your town, each job probably has a ton of candidates, recently graduated from the university where you'd get your degree.

So it looks as if in any case you'd need to move.  Pick the nearest attractive big city, ideally one where you have friends where you can crash for a week or two, and start the job search.  This is a much better and cheaper solution than a graduate degree.  A graduate degree just postpones the same situation while adding thousands of dollars of debt into the equation.

[beth2010]

Thanks for all the insight. These are things I have put a lot of thought into the last few weeks/months. I have been in school all of my adult life. I'm feeling discouraged that I spent my undergrad working on pretty much a worthless degree (I learned a lot, but a B.A. in Literature isn't exactly marketable), and I haven't made a name for myself. I have very few career options outside of retail or maybe a secretary.

I'm motivated and anxious to make a better life for myself. The degree I am thinking about is at a school in a much bigger city, so I would be moving to start in the summer. But I have considered that possibly there is something wrong with me, that I already tried out two degrees and couldn't succeed in either.

I appreciate the honesty, and that no one has been critical or harsh. It is nice to get insight from educators. I regret not being a better student, and honestly I should have taken time off 2 years ago when I graduated, but I listened to everyone else who said "Stay in school." The last thing I want to do is start something and fail again, but, I agree with you hegemony, I really need some structure. I just want to feel qualified to do something.

My brain feels fried from school. I would love to move, get a job, and relax from school for awhile, but it's not easy to do that with no help from anyone, and very limited income.

[toothpaste]

Why can't you get one of your professors from your previous graduate program to write you a letter of recommendation?

Another option is to take a couple classes as a non-degree student and chat up the professors (and do well in the classes) so you can ask them for letters to apply to the program you want. You can prime them with information about how you were not a very strong student before and what's changed about that, so that they can put that into their letters for you.

[beth2010]

I've thought about taking a few post-bach classes, but again, the money is my main drawback. I'm so freaked out about my debt, that it terrifies me to take out more loans just to pay for undergrad classes.

I don't feel comfortable asking my profs from my grad work, mainly because for my teaching classes, I always had different instructors every semester, and they were very large classes. I guess I also feel like they might look down on me for discontinuing the program. I only had one semester in the sociology program and those were online.

I realize as I'm typing this information that I sound like a horrible student. I do well in my classes, I've just had a rough time focusing.

[seniorscholar]

For many graduate programs the letters of recommendation and the personal statement are the keys to admission. You say that "you meet the requirements" but so do the other 200 hundred people who will be applying -- and most of them will have a GPA significantly higher than 3.1 and GRE scores better than yours. In general, graduate programs do not like the look of transcripts with incompletes or withdrawals and of programs that are started and then left: graduate students need to be self-starters with strong and persistent motivation. And the other applicants are likely to have much more course work in the areas that are actually appropriate to the degree. What you need are letters that say, strongly, that you have the essential skills and work habits and personal qualifications for demanding graduate work in Public Administration.

So what are those skills? Do you know? Can you find out? (I don't, but just on a hunch, I would imagine that some knowledge of statistics and/or accounting might be important, as well as some of the other skills that come with undergraduate courses in business as well as in sociology and political science.) Find out what the work -- the course work, the things you will actually have to do well to be a good student in the field -- will be, and what you'll need to demonstrate you can do in order to be a good candidate for admission. Find a way to demonstrate those skills (or learn them). Get the people who can talk about those skills as well as your other general strengths to write the letters of recommendation.

I doubt very much if this is something you can accomplish in a month or two. But think about it: volunteering for some reputable public programs? Getting a year of something like "City Year" (which is at least paid) under your belt and making sure it allows you to do some work that will expand your knowledge and skills? Taking inexpensive classes at your local community college to cover gaps in your skill set? Talking to people with degrees and/or positions in Public Policy to find out what they actually do, what they wish they'd known before they went to graduate school, how you could make yourself more prepared? As a matter of fact, just doing the research to find out what will make you an appropriate candidate for admission to a good program will be in itself one of the training exercises you need to be a decent graduate student.

[beth2010]

So, I guess I pretty much caused my own situation by getting back into school. I really wish I could go back and re do that decision, but I guess that's pointless thinking.

The minimum requirements are 2.5 gpa and 800 gre. It's not a super competitive program. I agree that researching the career would be a good thing to do. I am just scared about not having any direction in my future. The reason I had to discontinue my second program was a lack of research. I didn't research the availability of classes that were promised to be offered.

[ptarmigan]

If you've never had a regular job-type job, you may be mistaken about what kinds exist that you could get.  You're not limited to being a secretary or salesperson (or whatever it was you mentioned) at all, and you might enjoy the relaxing quality of a job where you go work your 40 hours and come home and they pay you money.  At the very least, you'd know what you were giving up to pursue more education.

[beth2010]

Well all of the "real" jobs I've applied for I haven't gotten. Honestly, what can I do with a degree in English? I would love to find a job I enjoy and just be happy for awhile, while deciding what to do. But I"m also worried that the longer I'm out of school, the least likely it will be for me to be accepted again if I do want to go back.

[ptarmigan]

Well all of the "real" jobs I've applied for I haven't gotten. Honestly, what can I do with a degree in English? I would love to find a job I enjoy and just be happy for awhile, while deciding what to do. But I"m also worried that the longer I'm out of school, the least likely it will be for me to be accepted again if I do want to go back.

I don't know what you can do with a degree in English.  I have no degree at all (graduating in May) and for the past 10+ years I've been working as a land and/or engineering/geological tech for oil & gas companies.  I got this job because I had a temp job as a filing clerk at one, and when they determined I could use a computer, they taught me to use some mapping software.  Another woman who has the same job as me at my same company has a degree in something like Spanish.  So, I know it's a rough/bad job market right now, but not every job depends on having a degree that it suitable for that exact job.

[boston]

Public administration (PA) is a field that emphasizes experience. Most of the students in PA graduate programs are career professionals who already have years of experience in the public sector. There are two important implications here - (1) the admissions standards for education may be lowered in this field, especially if you have work experience, and (2) most of your peers in the program will have more practical experience and know more about the field than you do, putting you at an immediate disadvantage.

Even if you complete the MPA program successfully, you will have a very difficult time finding work if you do not have relevant experience in the public sector. I have known a few PA grads that found that they were over-educated for the entry- and mid-level positions while lacking the experience for senior-level positions, thereby hindering their ability to find any job. If you truly want to enter PA, you should consider gaining experience before (or at least concurrently) to grad school. The public sector regularly offer paid and unpaid internships with city, county, and state governments. This is an excellent way to gain experience and find someone to write a meaningful letter of recommendation. Also, there are many entry-level positions in government and non-profits that probably pay on par with entry-level retail work.

You may want to take one or two undergraduate PA courses. This will give you a better sense of the discipline. In addition, you have the opportunity to impress your professors, who can then write your letters of recommendation. Good luck!