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[csguy]

There are really two issues here:

• The general attitude of Koreans toward foreigners
• Treatment of foreign faculty in Korean universities

Black Americans were discriminated against, both in law and in practice, for a very long time. I see no reason to believe that the 2% to 10% of minorities in Korea will not be discriminated against for a long time to come (probably not as long or severely as the US though). This hurts Korea in a number of ways so it would seem to be in their best interests to change. People don't always act in their own best interest.

If Korean universities want to be competitive globally they need to diversify their faculty. This means that they have to treat them better. This means competitive salaries (my own salary is competitive but that doesn't seem to be the case for everybody) as well as less discrimination in other ways.

A particular problem for Korea is that few people other than Koreans are fluent in Korean. If Korea wants to attract more international students (and given the demographic outlook they need to) they can't teach and conduct all their business in Korean. English would seem the language of choice.

Korean universities will not make these changes just because we want them to. They will make these changes, if they do, because it is in their own best interests to do so.

[der_gadfly]

Face it, racism is everywhere. ALways was, always will be.

So then it is okay to pay foreigners lower wages than Koreans in Korea and  treat them like crap? What a dumb and silly thing to say. I say "dumb and silly" because one gets tired of hearing this "argument" to defend or downplay Korean discrimination in the workplace over and over.

nothing like an ad hominem attack at lunchtime..... RTFP and then your own response: It does NOT justify things, just places them into a perspective. Reality is a horrible thing to face, but if reality is too much to handle, I support heavy drinking as an escape mechanism.

The point is to change the conditions of employment. If Koreans still want to dislike foreigners that is fine but there should be legal checks and balances so people they INVITE to boost their universities' rankings cannot be deceived by false promises, exploited or randomly abused just because "racism exists everywhere." You can never change certain people's attitudes but you can implement institutional changes to prevent them from acting out their fantasies of dominating people from different races and cultures.

Tolerance and equity are things that go hand in hand with all of this diverstiy nonsense: If you really believe in them, then you have to accept that not everyone will, because you are tolerant of others....

Brilliant!!!

<envisioning the two cartoon guys who sell Guinness beer> Thanks for the visual!

Then in your view we should just go back to killing each other based on race and religion.

Gee, even my racist urban students could have done better with their projection of my logic, but yours, well, ... WOW just WOW.

Tolerance, my dear friend is a learned behavior and attitude, it cannot be forced, or legislated. Noone ever accused me of promoting continued racism, but I am also realistic enough to know that without some good pharmaceuticals combined with ElectroShock Therapy  (aversion therapy), people are not going to lose heir ingrained beliefs. Tolerance entails that we also respect the intolerant.

Personally, your views of letting things be is not a desirable one seeing that 2% of the Korean population is non-Korean and this number is projected to reach 10% by the year 2050 according to Korea Immigration Services. You see, tolerance is the only way forward unless you want the same kind of ethnic violence as you have in many other parts of the world. Without tolerance there is only hate and can even lead to bloodshed. No thank you.

They will then have to go through the self same growing pains of managing an impure population, much as occurred in the US and former USSR.. AND African nations... AND in Singapore....

Equal pay for foreigners is the basic minimum. It's called basic human rights.
No human should be paid less just because they don't belong to a particular race.

No argument there.... but your analogies to the Black experience in America and use of Obama-ination as an example are at best, cute, but irrelevant.

 

Even Korean born Ban Ki-moon (Secretary-General of the UN) has repeatedly told the Korean government to change it's views and act towards foreigners.

They don't even listen to one of their own, and you want them to give a carp about your opinion?

[mingus]

Bugger Korea.

[kukom]

Despite the changes in methodology and despite the much anticipated collaboration of THE with Thomson Reuters instead of QS, the new ranking of Korean universities shows the following two things:

1) It's very essential that they avoid being mean to their foreign faculty.

2) They should teach as high a proportion of their classes in English as possible. That is, they should use the English language as much as possible.


On point 1), well, Seoul National University has received a great deal of bad press in the past year with respect to its biased treatment of its foreign faculty and foreign students alike. I'm going to go out on a limb and state that at least part of this must have led to a considerable drop in SNU's ranking from #47 to #109. Surely, this will make SNU rethink its stance on how it treats foreigners. They are no longer number one. They are now number 3 in Korea. OUCH!!!

On point 2), POSTECH went from #134 to #28, perhaps coincidentally, it happened to be during the same period that they decided to teach 100% of all their courses in English. Good on POSTECH on becoming number one in Korea. They have proven that the use of the English language is no less than essential if the aim of a university is to climb in the rankings.


Perhaps, what is more important is to boast, a little, about being right about Paul Z. Jambor's essays being evidently spot on. Just a little tap on my shoulders will suffice thank you very much. All right, just joking. That's a little too much. But don't be surprised in hearing me post "I told you so".

2009 THE - QS Rankings: http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/hybrid.asp?typeCode=438

2010 THE - Reuters Rankings: http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2010-2011/top-200.html

[kukom]

It's interesting how anti-Americanism is still so much alive in Korea. Those bad American native English teachers! Interesting read. This guy is a real Quack!:

http://www.phpbb88.com/archiesforum/viewtopic.php?mforum=archiesforum&t=427&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&mforum=archiesforum

[csguy]

Despite the changes in methodology and despite the much anticipated collaboration of THE with Thomson Reuters instead of QS, the new ranking of Korean universities shows the following two things:

1) It's very essential that they avoid being mean to their foreign faculty.

2) They should teach as high a proportion of their classes in English as possible. That is, they should use the English language as much as possible.


On point 1), well, Seoul National University has received a great deal of bad press in the past year with respect to its biased treatment of its foreign faculty and foreign students alike. I'm going to go out on a limb and state that at least part of this must have led to a considerable drop in SNU's ranking from #47 to #109. Surely, this will make SNU rethink its stance on how it treats foreigners. They are no longer number one. They are now number 3 in Korea. OUCH!!!

On point 2), POSTECH went from #134 to #28, perhaps coincidentally, it happened to be during the same period that they decided to teach 100% of all their courses in English. Good on POSTECH on becoming number one in Korea. They have proven that the use of the English language is no less than essential if the aim of a university is to climb in the rankings.

I would argue that the new rankings mostly show different measures are being used. University rankings are usually pretty stable -- they don't change by 50 or more places in a year. Not to say you don't have a point on the reasons Korean universities are not highly ranked.

[embitteredhistorian]

82% of South Koreans have a favorable attitude towards Americans:

http://pewglobal.org/database/?indicator=2

I prefer Pew polls to one guy on an internet forum, but that's just me.

[kukom]

82% of South Koreans have a favorable attitude towards Americans:

http://pewglobal.org/database/?indicator=2

I prefer Pew polls to one guy on an internet forum, but that's just me.

Korean Racism?

While it is true that the moderator of the site/the creator of the thread (http://www.phpbb88.com/archiesforum/viewtopic.php?mforum=archiesforum&t=427&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&sid=4e7cc12688f059ddb87063e85009c1a0&mforum=archiesforum) is a racist buffoon and his opinion cannot be used to reflect the a widespread point of view, this kind of hate-mongering toward North American English teachers goes a long way in influencing other people's points of views, therefore they should not be tolerated. Furthermore, there is a precedence of Korean lawmakers inviting those running such blogs (such as the Anti-English Spectrum) to give suggestions on how to amend laws pertaining to foreigners. Hence, this is the reason why this kind of hate needs to be stopped at the grass roots level so that it has no chance of spreading into the mass media where it can influence the masses as was the case a few years ago with the anti-foreigner hatred posted by the Anti-English Spectrum.

Well, according to this poll, South Koreans view Americans 10% more favorably than Canadians do. I find this survey quite suspect since Canadians aren't known to stage nearly as many anti-US demonstrations as Koreans with millions of people attending at least one that was staged under the context of US beef. This survey does very little to demonstrate the truth that we Korean residents are personally aware of. If you don't see this, then you simply don't get out quite as much as those of us with personal experiences. Something is very wrong with this survey.

What is more, if the survey is done in English then only those able to communicate well enough in English to completely understand the questions ever get to be polled. Usually, these people, at least in the case of South Korea, have a much more positive attitude toward Americans than the general population that tends to have a more negative attitude toward Americans as a whole. At least this is according to my own personal experience.

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/52827636/Reportage

http://www.life.com/image/698576

http://www.life.com/image/823357

With the number of actual anti-American demonstrations I've seen in and around Seoul, the reality does not seem to correlate with the numbers posted by the poll. Therefore, I'm very skeptical about it.

Also, even if we could have complete faith in the neutrality and the reliability of this survey, it in no way reflects the attitudes of Koreans toward 'foreigners' as a whole. While Koreans tend to have a more positive outlook on white foreigners, it's not necessarily the case when it comes to their attitudes toward South-East Asians.

But still, good link. Thanks for sharing the link with us.

[kukom]

Just to make it clear, the aim of my message is not to vilify Koreans as they are genuinely nice people in their own way. My intention is rather to ensure that the negative image of foreigners disseminated by some people isn't tolerated so as to eventually influence the masses in leading them to believe that the claimed negative portrayal of foreigners as they appear in these postings are true.

The media, as well as individuals, should not disseminate lies about foreigners in their postings. This only builds resentment and hatred in people's hearts. There is no reason why we cannot all get along.

Yes, a good portion of Koreans are kind people, but if they are constantly barraged with false information about foreigners, by 'netizens' as well as the mass media, even kind people have a strong tendency to treat foreigners in a discriminatory manner.

The bottom line is. It wouldn't hurt to simply rely on facts, not on over-generalizations, when it comes to the portrayal of the foreigners residing in Korea.

[embitteredhistorian]

Just to make it clear, the aim of my message is not to vilify Koreans as they are genuinely nice people

It wouldn't hurt to simply rely on facts, not on over-generalizations

Do you get the irony?

Oh, and the survey was in Korean and discussed extensively in the Korean media. Ask a Korean for more info.

[kukom]

Just to make it clear, the aim of my message is not to vilify Koreans as they are genuinely nice people

Well, you left out "in their own way" which makes a really big difference and pretty much takes away any chance of an irony.
I said"
"Just to make it clear, the aim of my message is not to vilify Koreans as they are genuinely nice people in their own way."

You shouldn't take things I say out of context.

It wouldn't hurt to simply rely on facts, not on over-generalizations

Do you get the irony?

Oh, and the survey was in Korean and discussed extensively in the Korean media. Ask a Korean for more info.

I still think the survey is a bit of a sham.
It fails to tell the reality. Something is really fishy when it comes to this survey and its results.
I'm not the skeptic type but this one is surely ringing alarm-bells.

Please spell out the methodology used in the workings of this survey so that we may have some level of belief in it.

[kukom]

Do you get the irony?

Do you?


Here's your link:

http://pewglobal.org/database/?indicator=2


... and then there are the following links (you be the judge of whether the survey is a scam or not)


http://seoul.usembassy.gov/113_060107.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/01/news/01iht-kor_ed1_.html

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0DE7D6113FF931A25754C0A961948260

http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=events.event_summary&event_id=27212

http://www.international.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=3367

http://fsi.stanford.edu/events/antiamericanism_in_south_korea/

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/GH05Dg03.html

http://articles.sfgate.com/2003-01-05/opinion/17472716_1_korean-market-south-koreans-grand-national-party

http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/2/0/9/0/9/p209092_index.html

http://aparc.stanford.edu/publications/22961

http://articles.latimes.com/2002/nov/27/world/fg-uskorea27

http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/0/4/1/4/8/p41484_index.html

http://northxkorea.blogspot.com/2010/04/anti-americanism-f***ing-usa-video.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-American_sentiment_in_Korea

http://www.stanford.edu/class/e297a/Anti-Americanism%20in%20South%20Korea.pdf

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all~content=a909893210~frm=titlelink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/f***ing_USA