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[mq9_reaper]

Hi everyone!

I am new to these forums and was wondering if I could get some advice on my situation.

I just entered into my final year of my undergraduate education at UMASS in history.
I have a 3.8 GPA and am graduating as a commonwealth scholar (just finished my honor's thesis)

My only downfall is that I had never heard of the GRE until 3 months ago when I decided to go to graduate school for Political Science. My scores were: Verbal-440, Quantitative-630, and AW-3.5. My main problem is not that I am unintelligent, I have simply never done well on these standardized examinations.

I have three great letters of recommendation, two of which are from professors who hired me on a research grant which my thesis was based on. I am currently working on a joint article with one of these professors to be published in the Journal of Strategic Studies.

I built and analyzed the first comprehensive database of reported US targeted killing operations in the tribal regions of Pakistan under this grant. My research professor and I are also participating in an APSA conference on Homeland Security in a few months. The only problem is, this conference and this publication will not be included on my application as they are still in progress.

I know for certain that my scores will not help me get accepted into any graduate programs, but I was wondering if they will keep me out of the Univsity of Michigan, Washington University, or Northwestern, as they say they have no 'cut-off' for GRE scores.

Best regards and Happy New Year
-Matt

[mq9_reaper]

whoops, reposted

[larryc]

What is your goal in getting a PhD? You know that there are no jobs, right?

[mq9_reaper]

Well, hopefully in five years there will be jobs, haha.

I am not too interested in becoming a professor, but I rather plan on focusing on International Relations specifically with the Islamic World. I plan to enter into government after I receive my degree.

[helpful]

Find a program that doesn't require a GRE. Unfortunately your 3.8 (presuming it is out of 4.3?) is also not high enough for scholarships.

[profxfiles]

I know for certain that my scores will not help me get accepted into any graduate programs, but I was wondering if they will keep me out of the Univsity of Michigan, Washington University, or Northwestern, as they say they have no 'cut-off' for GRE scores.

WARNING--BLUNT HONESTY COMING YOUR WAY.

I cannot speak for Washington, but I would be very surprised if you would be accepted into Northwestern or Michigan with those scores, and, if you somehow did get in, I would be even more surprised if you got $$. We have students at my school (very similar to yours in terms of reputation) in political science with 4.0 GPAs and 1300+ GRE scores that do not get into Michigan or Northwestern on a regular basis.  Keep in mind that you are talking about two VERY good Ph.D. programs at Michigan and Northwestern, with Michigan arguably being one of the 2-3 best in the nation, so competition is VERY tough.

My advice to you is to re-take the GREs or lower your target school set significantly.

[t_r_b]

Spend a couple of years out of school. At worst, you can probably score some sort of low-paying job or internship in NYC or DC working on some sort of DHS- or DoD-related research. And maybe it wouldn't even be so low-paying: you have wisely chosen to specialize in a growth industry. Your research supervisors may be able to help you out there.

There will be several benefits to this approach:

1. You'll learn more about non-academic career options. Given your interests, there are probably some very good ones worth considering.

2. You'll have time to think about your long-term career goals, and whether academia is really a good fit. Right now, as Larry notes, academia is a negative-growth industry (at least as far as long-term secure employment is concerned). Not something to rush into.

3. If you do decide to go to grad school, your application will be a lot stronger. That's partly because you'll get the chance to re-take the GRE (after doing more to prepare) and raise your score. But your experience working in a related field outside of school will be even more important. It will make you stand out to admissions committees, and it will give you more interesting material to include in your personal statement to contextualize your research plans.

4. If you do decide to go to grad school, spending a few years out of school first will give you a clearer sense of what you want to get out of it. You'll be more motivated because you will have tried out other career options and decided that this is the one for you. You will have had more of a chance to figure out how your research interests relate to current policy problems, which will help you design better research projects. Most of all, the time you spend away from school will make you a wiser and more well-rounded person than you are now, and that will make you a better scholar.

Get away from school for a few years. It will do you good. And if you are anywhere near traditional college age, you've got plenty of time. Really, you do.

On preview: if your goal is a non-academic career, all the more reason to get some non-academic work experience (and contacts!) before going back to school. You gain absolutely nothing by going to grad school now, other than the convenience of not having to worry about finding a job.

Unfortunately your 3.8 (presuming it is out of 4.3?) is also not high enough for scholarships.

Um, I believe at most places it's a 4.0 scale, not a 4.3 scale. A 3.8 is pretty darn good. Or am I missing something?

[larryc]

Ah, very good.

I think that you should hunt with a shotgun when applying to grad school, apply widely to relevant programs. You certainly can mention your upcoming presentations. You may be a stronger candidate than you think.

[helpful]

Sorry, at our place and many others I know, 4.3 is the top mark in the GPA.

[mq9_reaper]

My 3.82 is out of 4.0,

blunt honesty is fine by me, I already applied to UMich and Northwestern, if GRE scores were not necessary there is no doubt in my mind both would accept me.

[helpful]

My 3.82 is out of 4.0,

blunt honesty is fine by me, I already applied to UMich and Northwestern, if GRE scores were not necessary there is no doubt in my mind both would accept me.

Then, to say it again, find programs where the GRE is not required. Or else restudy and rewrite the silly exam.

[tinyzombie]

if GRE scores were not necessary there is no doubt in my mind both would accept me.

But they are, no? So your lack of doubt is irrelevant. I'd advise spending less time thinking like that and more applying the advice of the wise forumites.

[mq9_reaper]

Spend a couple of years out of school. At worst, you can probably score some sort of low-paying job or internship in NYC or DC working on some sort of DHS- or DoD-related research. And maybe it wouldn't even be so low-paying: you have wisely chosen to specialize in a growth industry. Your research supervisors may be able to help you out there.

There will be several benefits to this approach:

1. You'll learn more about non-academic career options. Given your interests, there are probably some very good ones worth considering.

2. You'll have time to think about your long-term career goals, and whether academia is really a good fit. Right now, as Larry notes, academia is a negative-growth industry (at least as far as long-term secure employment is concerned). Not something to rush into.

3. If you do decide to go to grad school, your application will be a lot stronger. That's partly because you'll get the chance to re-take the GRE (after doing more to prepare) and raise your score. But your experience working in a related field outside of school will be even more important. It will make you stand out to admissions committees, and it will give you more interesting material to include in your personal statement to contextualize your research plans.

4. If you do decide to go to grad school, spending a few years out of school first will give you a clearer sense of what you want to get out of it. You'll be more motivated because you will have tried out other career options and decided that this is the one for you. You will have had more of a chance to figure out how your research interests relate to current policy problems, which will help you design better research projects. Most of all, the time you spend away from school will make you a wiser and more well-rounded person than you are now, and that will make you a better scholar.

Get away from school for a few years. It will do you good. And if you are anywhere near traditional college age, you've got plenty of time. Really, you do.

On preview: if your goal is a non-academic career, all the more reason to get some non-academic work experience (and contacts!) before going back to school. You gain absolutely nothing by going to grad school now, other than the convenience of not having to worry about finding a job.

Unfortunately your 3.8 (presuming it is out of 4.3?) is also not high enough for scholarships.

Um, I believe at most places it's a 4.0 scale, not a 4.3 scale. A 3.8 is pretty darn good. Or am I missing something?

This is great advice, my main concern is that I come from a lower-middle class family and I just do not know how I will be able to return to grad school if i enter into a career... I dont want to get 'stuck' not being able to earn my degree.

I understand exactly what you are saying though, as this is what my advisors have told me to consider doing even before taking the GRE. I am also taking Arabic right now, so it might be helpful to get to working level before applying for the PhD as well.

[t_r_b]

This is great advice, my main concern is that I come from a lower-middle class family and I just do not know how I will be able to return to grad school if i enter into a career... I dont want to get 'stuck' not being able to earn my degree.

I understand exactly what you are saying though, as this is what my advisors have told me to consider doing even before taking the GRE. I am also taking Arabic right now, so it might be helpful to get to working level before applying for the PhD as well.

See, I'm thinking about it from a different angle. I'd guess that an Arabic-speaking recent college graduate with experience in security studies-type research on Afghanistan would be very much in demand among certain agencies based in Washington, and/or certain private corporations or NGOs doing related work. Unlike many of us on these boards, you are potentially a very useful person to organizations with money to burn. And those organizations won't give a rat's ass about your GRE scores, either. You can probably score some sort of researcher/analyst gig that will cover your rent and student loans for a few years until you decide it's time to get the degree. With luck, your employers may even find it worth their while to pay for you to go back to school: stranger things have happened. Even if they don't, you will be a much stronger applicant and thereby much more likely to score full funding from a top program. Your degree plus your prior work experience will together give you the credibility, the knowhow, and the connections to get a better-paying job. You'll be on your way to a successful career.

By contrast, if you go to grad school right away, you'll be going without full funding and/or to a lower-tier program (read: less impressive to potential employers, and fewer networking contacts). You'll eventually finish your degree, probably piling up some more debt along the way. For all you know you might get married and have kids, and suddenly require a much higher income. So you'll start looking for work, but with negligible experience outside of the classroom, and fewer government/industry connections, you'll have a much harder time. Don't underestimate the importance of knowing people who know people who might hire you. That's how most people who have good jobs got them (think about it: would you rather hire someone with a pretty CV, or someone who comes highly recommended by someone you trust?) Sure, you'd probably come out okay in the end - probably - but it would be a tougher slog.

At some point along the line, you are going to have to cut your teeth with some low-paying entry-level grunt work. Get that out of the way now. Then you'll be in a better position to get the most out of grad school, and to launch into a successful career afterward.

As for getting stuck: the only way that happens is if you become accustomed to a lifestyle beyond the means of a grad student. Solution: live cheaply. During the years you spend out of school, live on a shoestring budget and invest any surplus income in paying down your student loans (or find some other way to put it out of reach). Now, it's always possible that you will find your way into a fantastic job without even going to grad school, and if that happens, bully for you. But it's much more likely that without the graduate degree, you will be in an entry-level job that will get old pretty quickly. Doing that job will only further whet your appetite for grad school, and it will make you appreciate it all the more once you get there.

Ask your advisors to tell you more about pre-grad school career building options. It sounds like they may have some good ideas.

[daniel_von_flanagan]

Take the NSA exam; with your background, if you do decently they will give you a very nice job, and then pay for you to get a Ph.D. in a couple of years. - DvF