next »

[frogfactory]

I really don't believe that performance in a stats class is indicative of a knowledge of the practical applications of statistics. But, just for the heck of it: someone please show me a study (double-blind peer-reviewed in an internationally recognized journal) that proves me wrong.

Hmm.  What degree of significance would you require to accept such findings?

[systeme_d_]

my professors didn't laugh about it in faculty meetings

We did. Hours and hours of fun. We reminisce about Systeme_B+ in our faculty meetings still.

Oh my gosh, Shamu, you were on my committee, weren't you‽

<waving wildly and thanking you for the opportunity to use the interrobang>

[st_alfonso]

In general, it does not matter that you earned a B in a class. I have seen Bs (plural) cause harm when someone applies for a position that requires high-level knowledge in the area the Bs were received. For example, a few years ago I was on a search committee for a research methodologist position that received 30+ applications. Several applicants had received Bs in the basic courses (statistics, design, etc.) we were looking for him or her to teach. Since we had many applicants with As in these courses the applicants with Bs were cut when they did not provide other evidence suggesting the grades were inaccurate indicators of their competence.

I didn't do all that well in my stat classes. When asked in an interview something along the lines of "How good are you with statistics?" I parried with something along the lines of "Um, this position uses very basic statistics, such as mean, median and mode, very basic correlation coefficients, and the occasional ANOVA. I am fully able to manage all of those, plus perform various split-halves reliablity tests, and am fully familiar with Kendall's Coefficient of Concordance." The STATS guru in the room looked puzzled and asked about that one..... hu had a PhD in statistics and had never even come across it!

I really don't believe that performance in a stats class is indicative of a knowledge of the practical applications of statistics. But, just for the heck of it: someone please show me a study (double-blind peer-reviewed in an internationally recognized journal) that proves me wrong.

Would you be willing to teach statistics and research methods beyond introductory courses? As my post above notes, we were looking for someone with knowledge beyond basic statistics. Applying statistics is quite different than teaching statistics. Just as writing and speaking English are competently different than teaching English. Would we need a similar experiment to determine that someone with mediocre grades in most of their English courses would likely perform poorly at teaching English? I don't think so.

It's not a B or two that concerns me with job applicants. It is multiple Bs in the content area the applicant will be expected to teach if hired. Think of it this way. How comfortable would you be having a surgeon work on you who received multiple Bs in his area of expertise?

[shamu]

my professors didn't laugh about it in faculty meetings

We did. Hours and hours of fun. We reminisce about Systeme_B+ in our faculty meetings still.

Oh my gosh, Shamu, you were on my committee, weren't you‽

<waving wildly and thanking you for the opportunity to use the interrobang>

We aim to edutain.

On a more serious note, when did it become forbidden to get anything but an A in grad school? We might as well come up with a new system in grad school. Here is my suggestion:
A: Pass
A-: Pass, barely squeaking by
B+: Fail gloriously
B: Fail
B-: Fail miserably
below a B: OMG, how did you get into grad school?

[polly_mer]

It's not a B or two that concerns me with job applicants. It is multiple Bs in the content area the applicant will be expected to teach if hired. Think of it this way. How comfortable would you be having a surgeon work on you who received multiple Bs in his area of expertise?

I got a C in the graduate course most relevant to a research area in which I have now published six papers and in which I published a paper at about the same time that I earned a C in that class.  If you would rather hire someone who got A's and published nothing in that area, then you are welcome to do so.  Other people will be happy to hire me with my C in that class.

[glowdart]

On a more serious note, when did it become forbidden to get anything but an A in grad school? We might as well come up with a new system in grad school. Here is my suggestion:
A: Pass
A-: Pass, barely squeaking by
B+: Fail gloriously
B: Fail
B-: Fail miserably
below a B: OMG, how did you get into grad school?

That actually is about what our grade system did mean:

A: What you should be doing
A-: Are you having a bad semester?  This is not up to par.
B+: Seriously reconsider your behavior or methods.  This is a warning.
B: Why are you here? How did you get here?
B-: If we assign you low grades, then we can passive-aggressively revoke your funding and hope you'll just leave so that we don't have to actually remove you from the program
Below a B-: Leave.  Now.  And never return.  You have failed. 

[polly_mer]

On a more serious note, when did it become forbidden to get anything but an A in grad school? We might as well come up with a new system in grad school. Here is my suggestion:
A: Pass
A-: Pass, barely squeaking by
B+: Fail gloriously
B: Fail
B-: Fail miserably
below a B: OMG, how did you get into grad school?

That actually is about what our grade system did mean:

A: What you should be doing
A-: Are you having a bad semester?  This is not up to par.
B+: Seriously reconsider your behavior or methods.  This is a warning.
B: Why are you here? How did you get here?
B-: If we assign you low grades, then we can passive-aggressively revoke your funding and hope you'll just leave so that we don't have to actually remove you from the program
Below a B-: Leave.  Now.  And never return.  You have failed. 

I sense a philosophical difference here.

Some of us believe that graduate school is about learning how to do research.  One should basically scrape by on classes and spend a lot of time on research.  Consequently, yes, I have several B's and a C in graduate school.  I also had more published papers during the initial classes time than some people have upon completing their first post-doc.  My funding was never cancelled for having low grades; in fact, I received extra funding because I was a fabulous researcher who presented and published.

Grades are important if you are playing the school game and expect to spend even more time playing the school game.  However, for those of us who spent our graduate years as junior researchers and prefer that culture, grades don't matter.  I've supervised a good bit of undergraduate and master's research.  I would rather have the B- student than the A student in most cases.  The B- student can think and do interesting things.  The A student is often a wonderful memorizer who can play the game, but not do original research.

[st_alfonso]

It's not a B or two that concerns me with job applicants. It is multiple Bs in the content area the applicant will be expected to teach if hired. Think of it this way. How comfortable would you be having a surgeon work on you who received multiple Bs in his area of expertise?

I got a C in the graduate course most relevant to a research area in which I have now published six papers and in which I published a paper at about the same time that I earned a C in that class.  If you would rather hire someone who got A's and published nothing in that area, then you are welcome to do so.  Other people will be happy to hire me with my C in that class.

I haven't been clear in my position. I assume my point of view is partly due to my field and geographic location. In colleges of education it is damn near impossible to get less than a B+ in a graduate course. If one has a pulse he or she can get an A. Trust me, I'm not going to ignore someone with 6 pubs and a couple of low grades. My university is in "fly-over" country and we have a limited number of applicants we can invite, 2-3 at best. Our hires are based on "potential" for doing research, rather than actual track records. We are often chasing ABDs with one or two pubs with their advisor. Since the pubs are with the advisor it is difficult to tell who did the work.

Let's say we are looking at 15 applicants with very little separation and we're trying to get down to 10 who have research "potential" for phone interviews. They all have somewhere around a conference presentation and a publication with their advisor. Maybe one or two graduated and struggled to get placed in their first two years. And, of course, an associate or full professor with a middling career who wants to use us for a raise back home. We will eventually invite three for campus visits. How do you make the cut? First, we dump the tenured professor. Then with the true assistant level applicants it gets tricky. I agree, that it should not be exclusively on grades. However, when an applicant has low grades in the area we are looking for expertise this might be a place to start cutting.

I'd be very nervous if I were a student and started racking up a large number of Bs in my area of specialization without a number of publications to compensate. Especially, if my degree is from a college of edukashion.

[mouseman]

On a more serious note, when did it become forbidden to get anything but an A in grad school? We might as well come up with a new system in grad school. Here is my suggestion:
A: Pass
A-: Pass, barely squeaking by
B+: Fail gloriously
B: Fail
B-: Fail miserably
below a B: OMG, how did you get into grad school?

That actually is about what our grade system did mean:

A: What you should be doing
A-: Are you having a bad semester?  This is not up to par.
B+: Seriously reconsider your behavior or methods.  This is a warning.
B: Why are you here? How did you get here?
B-: If we assign you low grades, then we can passive-aggressively revoke your funding and hope you'll just leave so that we don't have to actually remove you from the program
Below a B-: Leave.  Now.  And never return.  You have failed. 

Actually, in grad school we looked at our grades this way:

A = Average
B = Below average
C = Confused, in fact, too Confused to have dropped the class already.

[bread_pirate_naan]

Grades below B- are insufficient to fulfill coursework expectations in my humanities program. (Failing)

In the sciences here,  C=looking for a new lab, or on the fast track to an invite to leave with an MS.

[figee]

I (ahem) have a just-barely-passed grade on my grad school transcript for my masters.  Fortunately, did a great PhD and have a job.  Research and the ability to teach in other areas makes up for a great deal.  As do good references.