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[leopard]

I'm in the middle of a chapter draft and I can identify what I see as some problems with it. The due date is fast approaching and I am eager to get some feedback on it.

I'm curious about faculty preferences for receiving drafts. Do you prefer your students to send a draft along with a note about the perceived problems (organization, argument, etc) or do you prefer to read it "clean" without preconceived thoughts about the problems. I can see arguments for both sides -- on the one hand, awareness of problems ahead of time could make it less frustrating to read, knowing potential pitfalls might make responding easier, etc  and on the other hand, the student's perception of issues might be incorrect, one sometimes sees more (bad and good) without a set frame, etc.

I tend to just say something bland like "I know this needs revising and I look forward to your comments," but I'm wondering if it would be helpful to set out the issues I see and ask for comments responding to them. (At least in this case, my advisor is aware that this is a draft and will need to be reworked, so the expectation is not a perfectly structured, impeccably argued piece). I'm getting to the point where I need someone else with expertise in the field to help guide me as I'm at a loss for how to situate certain things and fix other problems.

[terpsichore]

Why not ask your committee what they would prefer? They are the ones you will need to sign the final version.

[ticklemepink]

I think you're being neurotic!  If you feel the need to comment, say so in the e-mail.  They can decide whether to read the e-mail or not.  They can just download the draft and not read the e-mail until after they've read it.  My advisor occasionally looks at my comments and I just bring up my concerns in our meeting.  After she talks, of course.

[hegemony]

I find it annoying to get a chapter along with a list of problems that have been identified but not fixed.  But I also hate getting chapters late.  My recommendation: redouble your efforts to make this chapter as good as you can make it before you turn it in.

[verbena]

Fix the problems you've identified before handing in the draft! (These are people you're going to ask for rec letters from, yes?) 

<rolls eyes at "kids today">

[sir_lancelot]

A draft is supposed to be your best effort to date. If you can see problems, fix them! Nothing worse than getting different versions of the same thing plus comments plus suggestions. It just says "I am too lazy to work on this".

[leopard]

Thank you for your feedback. I have been furiously working to get the chapter in good shape before turning it in.

Perhaps I'm feeling defensive or perhaps I misused the word "problem," but I can't imagine I'm the only person who has finished writing a chapter and wondered, "hmmm, I don't know if this was the best way to organize the narrative, but I'm not sure the other way I can think of would be any better." I can see why my advisor would want me to test out the other way, possibly rewriting the chapter before I turned it in, but I also feel like my advisor might actually be able to tell me whether that would be a better or worse idea before I plunged into a total rewrite. Maybe I'm lazier than I thought I was.

[msparticularity]

Thank you for your feedback. I have been furiously working to get the chapter in good shape before turning it in.

Perhaps I'm feeling defensive or perhaps I misused the word "problem," but I can't imagine I'm the only person who has finished writing a chapter and wondered, "hmmm, I don't know if this was the best way to organize the narrative, but I'm not sure the other way I can think of would be any better." I can see why my advisor would want me to test out the other way, possibly rewriting the chapter before I turned it in, but I also feel like my advisor might actually be able to tell me whether that would be a better or worse idea before I plunged into a total rewrite. Maybe I'm lazier than I thought I was.

Ah--I think this is a slightly different issue. I am fine with having a student ask a specific question like this, and I definitely don't want to have to wade through two different versions. I also think it's wise to ask before proceeding, because in my experience the answer is sometimes, "Your other idea will be great when you revise this chapter to submit it as an article, but for now just leave it this way because it's more straightforward for your defense."

[seniorscholar]

As someone who regularly writes 200,000 words to find the 100,000 that will be the book manuscript, I recognize the grad students whose brains work in a similar fashion and am glad to see a massive chapter draft -- especially of the first or second substantive chapter (the introduction should be written last, after you know what it is you're introducing) -- and help the grad student find what the ideas really are and how to set them up. In fact, those students make me more positive about their prospects of actually finishing than the ones who turn in a  polished 40 page chapter every 15 or 18 months. I'm also perfectly happy with drafts that have footnotes reading "find the d%#n reference and figure out if it belongs here." Yet I have colleagues who firmly believe that students have no business even starting to write until they know everything they're going to say.

You might ask your supervisor which camp s/he belongs in.

[leopard]

Thank you for your feedback. I have been furiously working to get the chapter in good shape before turning it in.

Perhaps I'm feeling defensive or perhaps I misused the word "problem," but I can't imagine I'm the only person who has finished writing a chapter and wondered, "hmmm, I don't know if this was the best way to organize the narrative, but I'm not sure the other way I can think of would be any better." I can see why my advisor would want me to test out the other way, possibly rewriting the chapter before I turned it in, but I also feel like my advisor might actually be able to tell me whether that would be a better or worse idea before I plunged into a total rewrite. Maybe I'm lazier than I thought I was.

Ah--I think this is a slightly different issue. I am fine with having a student ask a specific question like this, and I definitely don't want to have to wade through two different versions. I also think it's wise to ask before proceeding, because in my experience the answer is sometimes, "Your other idea will be great when you revise this chapter to submit it as an article, but for now just leave it this way because it's more straightforward for your defense."

This makes sense to me. Thank you.

As someone who regularly writes 200,000 words to find the 100,000 that will be the book manuscript, I recognize the grad students whose brains work in a similar fashion and am glad to see a massive chapter draft -- especially of the first or second substantive chapter (the introduction should be written last, after you know what it is you're introducing) -- and help the grad student find what the ideas really are and how to set them up. In fact, those students make me more positive about their prospects of actually finishing than the ones who turn in a  polished 40 page chapter every 15 or 18 months. I'm also perfectly happy with drafts that have footnotes reading "find the d%#n reference and figure out if it belongs here." Yet I have colleagues who firmly believe that students have no business even starting to write until they know everything they're going to say.

You might ask your supervisor which camp s/he belongs in.

So I'm not the only one who has to overwrite (length-wise) to figure out what I'm really saying! That makes me feel better. I think I have a much better handle on the material now, but I'm still uncertain about parts of the argument and the order in which to present it. This is my first substantive chapter (intro is nowhere in sight) and I'm going definitely going to ask my advisor what s/he prefers. My guess (hope?) is s/he falls more into seniorscholar's camp based on conversations with other students, but I might be misunderstanding their anecdotes.

[msparticularity]

As someone who regularly writes 200,000 words to find the 100,000 that will be the book manuscript, I recognize the grad students whose brains work in a similar fashion and am glad to see a massive chapter draft -- especially of the first or second substantive chapter (the introduction should be written last, after you know what it is you're introducing) -- and help the grad student find what the ideas really are and how to set them up. In fact, those students make me more positive about their prospects of actually finishing than the ones who turn in a  polished 40 page chapter every 15 or 18 months. I'm also perfectly happy with drafts that have footnotes reading "find the d%#n reference and figure out if it belongs here." Yet I have colleagues who firmly believe that students have no business even starting to write until they know everything they're going to say.

You might ask your supervisor which camp s/he belongs in.

Yes, this is me, too--I'm the quintessential process writer, and encourage the same kind of thing from my students. While I do expect them to have spent some serious thought on any draft they turn in to me, I also prefer NOT to see work that my students think is fully refined and final.