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[wsr88d]

I have been in grad school now working on my doctorate going on my 3 rd year now......next term I will be finished with all my coursework (required) and will be scheduled to take my comps in summer 2010.

Though, my advisor/chair seems to have their priorities all out of whack and out there in left field! First of all, hu convinced me to start on chapters for my dissertation, (i.e. lit review, etc.), the non-part of the research/data section...which was not really an issue since I had a pretty solid foundation on my area and literature needed to complete it. I started writing this thing almost a year ago, and to date I have completed all the sections/chapters that were slated and outlined for me by my chair and committee, however, I keep submitting sections of my chapters for review/suggestions/edits as hu's procedures outlined for me to do. I have had one to three conversations (mainly via conference calls) to discuss my work and briefly talk about my research and data collection methods in the months to come...all casual and productive, for the most part.

My issue is, as well as many others in the program and under hu's advisement, is that hu's has not even returned one piece of written work with any comments/suggestions for edits, etc. since the initial submission a year ago...hu has talked about things hu recommended on the phone, and keeps stating that hu will be forwarding back the work with hu's notes for continued edits, etc. Never once have seen the returns.

It is getting bad, because a year has passed, and many of us have lost faith, confidence in hu's ability to advise us anymore. we have attempted to call numerous times, left messages, even multiple emails.......all rarely ever returned. Wish we could drop hu as the chair of our committee - but it is not an option b/c hu is running this department and program. So we are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

I constantly talk to hu's secretary to find out this and that, and questioned hu's commitment to those left hanging in the shadows - and was told (not only to me - but to others as well) that hu is mainly focusing on 5-6 doctoral students that were set to graduate before the '09 year term...which was hu's priority right now - and things should get better next year! I say B.S. Because I feel that my work is not important - and my progress is being side-stepped to those who are getting ready to graduate NOW..... yet, I have to wait until it is convenient for hu and hu's schedule.

Hu wanted me to take another term working on the dissertation - and I had to tell hu's secretary that next term I am finishing up my last couple coursework required and will not take my comps until summer, because I feel I am being neglected and not properly advised in my work...and when hu is ready to commit to me then I will be ready either summer or fall of next year - because I have busted my tail in coursework, writings, etc. with no true advisement - and I am burnt out and tired. I also conveyed the message that me taking a hiatus in summer is something I will do, and possibly in fall too - if I so desire!

I do not know what else to do about all this.......if it wasn't for the fellowship/grant money being thrown my way to pay for all my work, and the fact I have invested three years in, and almost being an ABD.......I would have bailed out a year or so ago. it is a shame, because I have lost two really great friends/colleagues in the program due to negligence on hu's part, and I am getting the feeling that two others and planning to take an indefinite hiatus after next term after their comps for the same reason!

Cheers! 

[hegemony]

I'm sorry your advisor is so overwhelmed and negligent. But that said, don't cut off your nose to spite your face.   Why can't you take your comps without your advisor's input?  Graduate school is a time to work independently, and your advisor's input should be minimal anyway unless you're seriously deficient in your work.  Go ahead and finish your coursework, prepare for comps, and get your dissertation underway.  Your advisor may pay more attention later in the process, or may not.  I find a number of the advisors who work very closely with students during their grad school careers -- writing detailed comments on multiple drafts, closely tracking every chapter -- are actually micromanaging the student's writing more than is perhaps advisable.  Not always, but often.  You could have someone who's changing your every "which" to a "that" and your every "that" to a "which," and demanding that you reorder all your sections and not move ahead an inch until they've given their approval.  Some students feel secure with this level of micromanagement, and crave approval from their advisor.  But the profession is not like that, and this is the time to practice a more independent style of working, one that does not rely on unreliable people to get their act together before you succeed.  And not that I condone ignoring grad students, but it sounds as if your advisor has far too many to give each one much individual attention.  Overloaded is overloaded.

My own experience was not ideal, but my advisor only read one chapter of my dissertation, and I got less than a paragraph of comments.  I know many others who can say the same.  In the best of all worlds, every chapter would be read with thoughtfulness.  But just because this is not the best of all worlds doesn't mean that you can't forge ahead and make a great success of your graduate career.   Don't wait for this person to change, and don't let the lack of input stop you -- or even bother you.  Seriously.

[dr_prephd]

Okay, I'm not sure where to start. In short, yes, what Hegemony said.

My own experience is somewhat similar to yours. Having courted my advisor during my 2nd year of coursework, the first few times he went through my dissertation, I did not get any written comments. Instead, we talked about big picture things. It was not until I was officially ABD (passed comps + complete proposal) that he started to give more specific feedback. Now that I'm officially on his roster and gearing up to collect data, he is definitely giving me more attention. So don't despair, there is certainly room to grow.

You seem to be putting the cart before the horse. First, finish your coursework and pass your comps.

If you don't get responses from e-mail or phone messages, then stop by office hours if you have specific questions (you can't dodge a person standing right in front of you).

Yes, you do have to wait. If your advisor has 5 or 6 students getting ready to defend and you still haven't finished coursework or passed comps, then you are not his top priority. Period.

I'm not sure what you mean by "taking another term to work on the dissertation," but the only person you'll screw by taking next fall off is yourself. Do not wait to have your hand held.

The colleagues you have lost are not the advisor's fault; they just couldn't hack grad school. Graduate school is the place to show you can be an independent scholar. If you can't, then, by all means, take a hiatus. But chances are you won't come back.

You are only one of many responsibilities this person has. Right now, you are not top on the list, but one day, you may be. Be patient, play by the rules, create a timeline and stick to it. Or don't. But don't blame the advisor. 

[mdwlark]

Hu wanted me to take another term working on the dissertation - and I had to tell hu's secretary that next term I am finishing up my last couple coursework required and will not take my comps until summer, because I feel I am being neglected and not properly advised in my work...and when hu is ready to commit to me then I will be ready either summer or fall of next year - because I have busted my tail in coursework, writings, etc. with no true advisement - and I am burnt out and tired. I also conveyed the message that me taking a hiatus in summer is something I will do, and possibly in fall too - if I so desire!

OMG.  I'm not going to say all of what I'm thinking.  I wrote it and erased it.  I'm trying to tone it down.  I'll say this much.  In addition to what prephd and hegemony said,

1.  You have this wonderful opportunity and are being paid to study.  Drop the attitude.    

2.  Your chair has you exactly where you need to be--independently developing your lit review and focusing on comps and classes.  "Hu" is doing "hus" job.  The time for careful editing is next year.  

3.  Quit complaining to the department secretary.  She works for the chair.  Her loyalties are first and foremost to the chair, not to you.  You are not only unwisely saying negative things about your chair, you are making sure hu hears it.  Think of them as a unit. You have already done serious political damage to yourself. Stop it now. You may need to do some damage control, and tell the secretary you have seen the light, you realize you had the wrong attitude, and appreciate all they are doing for you.  I'm serious.  

4.  Likewise, stop gossiping with the other students about your chair.  Students who feed into this will pull you down. They also will gossip about you and you will be left holding the bag alone.  Find other students who are working well with the program and align yourself with them. They won't be as much fun, but they are going to be successful in getting a doctorate.  

5.  Develop some loyalty to your chair.  Whether or not you will get a PhD depends on it. hu is the chair of both your department and your committee.  Hu knows a lot more than you do.  Hu has a lot to teach you.

[grasshopper]

You all have been too kind. Some advice from someone who is also working with an advisor/chair who tends to be absent throughout much of the process:

1. Get over yourself. And I mean that in the kindest, most helpful way. You are not this person's priority. Not even close. You're still doing coursework. Your advisor has other students further along in the process, who need his/her help much more than you do at this point. If it helps, maybe try to think of it this way: when you're at that stage, your advisor will be there for you in the same way he's being there for his current diss-writing advisees.

2. You are not in a position to judge whether or not your advisor is giving you too much or not enough attention right now. The reason why you're not in a position to make this judgment call is because you don't have a standard by which to measure your own abilities and needs. Your advisor does. Trust that s/he knows what you have to learn (which you don't, because you haven't learned it yet), and that s/he knows, from experience, the best way for you to learn these things. Part of that process is going to be letting the little bird wing it for a while. You may not like it, but it doesn't mean that it's not necessary.

3. Don't bellyache to the secretary. S/he doesn't care. And what's more, s/he has no idea why your advisor is doing things the way s/he is right now, and even if s/he were in a position to determine what would be the best for you right now, s/he doesn't have the power to change anything. So just stop. It makes you look like an entitled whiner. Especially when bellyaching is combined with that annoying claim that you speak for everybody. Just so we're clear, students say this all the time. It's rarely true. The ones who say it are usually just trying to validate their whining.

4. Don't threaten to sabotage your own success just to "get back" at your advisor. Or to make him/her see how wrong he is. Or to force him to get on your ass. None of these things will work. The only thing that will work is the sabotage part. You will indeed sabotage your own success. But it won't achieve any of the desired results. That, I can guarantee.


I understand that you're in Education? Maybe that makes you think that you know more than your advisor does about how people should be educated. It doesn't. In the first place, your advisor knows more than you do on the subject. And in the second place, education happens differently in graduate studies. And your advisor knows more than you do about that, too.


A bit off-topic, aren't you also applying for tt positions? Why are you doing this when you haven't even finished your coursework yet? Did your advisor sign off on this?

[bread_pirate_naan]

Good luck with the clue thingy.  This is one of the most outstanding OPs of how not to think and what not to do that has ever crossed this board.


Listen to Meadow.

You have already done serious political damage to yourself. Stop it now. You may need to do some damage control, and tell the secretary you have seen the light, you realize you had the wrong attitude, and appreciate all they are doing for you.  I'm serious.  

[locutus]

at hu is mainly focusing on 5-6 doctoral students that were set to graduate before the '09 year term...which was hu's priority right now

Wait..how many people is this person advising? It sounds like this person is the main advisor for a dozen or so doctoral students. That seems like a lot to me.

[kedves]

...I had to tell hu's secretary that next term I am finishing up my last couple coursework required and will not take my comps until summer, because I feel I am being neglected and not properly advised in my work and when hu is ready to commit to me then I will be ready either summer or fall of next year...

Your advisor is not your hufriend.  Do you get that?  Your advisor is your coach.  Do what Coach says, practice and perform and don't talk trash, or you're not going to make the team.

[imawakenow]

Your advisor is not your hufriend. 

Usually not a fan of the "hu," but his made me laugh.

OP: Chime on the tougher medicine in the last several posts. As far as complaining to the department secretary, stop it. Now.

[reener06]

Chime on all above, and if you still want the fellowships/grant money to continue to be "thrown your way", I'd quit making so much noise, or it may be thrown someone else's way. Then your idea about taking next fall off may be less a choice than a necessity.

My advisor is pretty hands off too, and it sounds like you get more feedback than I've ever gotten. I am getting more the closer I get to finishing, which is gratifying and as it should be. Also, my advisor has around 8-10 other students all in various stages, and I recognize the ones ahead of me take up more of his time than I do, and rightly so. In short, wait your turn to get on the bus instead of jumping under it.

[post_functional]

However correct you all are in the content of the comments to OP, I think the tone here is a little mean.  (I know, seize the opportunity to come down like a ton of bricks on a relative newbie--- does that happen here a lot on the CHE???)  Keep in mind that--- as OP framed the situation--- chair promised something and then did not deliver.  Chair therefore has a bit of culpability and should not verbally overcommit.

OP, your chair/adviser can't possibly be the only bright mind in your field?  Could you not get informal critique from someone with a little more time on his or her hands?  I know that in the end it's your adviser/chair's viewpoints that will count, but until then, maybe a peer who is a little further along than you and knows your adviser/chair's way of thinking?

[advil]

hu is mainly focusing on 5-6 doctoral students that were set to graduate before the '09 year term...which was hu's priority right now

It's clear that this isn't what you want to hear, but there's no way some who currently is advising 5-6 people about to graduate is going to spend much time on a 3rd year's lit reviews.  This person is clearly just extremely overbooked -- as a student you have no idea how much time advising takes, especially at the late stage that you aren't at, and I personally can't imagine having so many students.  Honestly I think you're lucky to be getting the meetings you are.  If you want more attention I think your best bet is going to be switching to an advisor with more time.

[cranefly]

If you need more advising than you're getting, form a study group, or find a mentor who is willing to help you. I got through my PhD without my advisor ever reading it. EVER. Nope, not even the finished diss. Think of them as a person to sign forms and your life will be less stressful. You're on your own, and so "man up" and take your work into your own hands now.

[dr_prephd]

However correct you all are in the content of the comments to OP, I think the tone here is a little mean. 

And what do you think of the tone of the OP?

[msparticularity]

OP, let me preface this by saying that I am in education also, and that my training and teaching overlap a bit with yours. I understand some of your impatience and frustration, but it also strikes me that a significant amount of what you are feeling and expecting seems--possibly, at least--to be based upon some broad and systematic misunderstandings of higher education. For a variety of reasons, this is not all that unusual in professional fields, by which I mean those associated with licensure to practice a profession, such as medicine, accounting, engineering and education. Given that, I am going to offer you some broad feedback about your trajectory through your program, since your goal does appear to be a TT position (which is what I now have).

First, given your current schedule, it strikes me that your attention to your coursework may be relatively cursory. I, too, taught HS full-time throughout my coursework, but you are teaching adjunct courses as well! When are you reading and thinking and wondering? Seriously, doctoral coursework consists of far more than getting through the reading and taking the exams; it is a time to broaden your acquaintance with the field through extending your readings beyond the syllabus, and spending a great deal of time reflecting upon how all of these things fit together. It is from broad familiarity with both the background and the current questions that a dissertation must come--if, at least, you hope to get hired.

Secondly, you are out interviewing for full-time positions before you have even advanced to candidacy! Just finishing a dissertation that has already been approved from the prospectus and substantially begun can be nearly impossible in a new faculty position; trying to prepare a prospectus goes beyond ill-advised and into the realm of insanity and self-destruction. Hiring committees WILL NOT take you seriously as a candidate without your advisor's assurance that you will have your degree in hand in the very new future. I wonder, in fact, whether your difficulties on the market this year have been due to the SC calling your advisor, and discovering how far you are from completion.

There are very definitely positions in science education, and with your HS experience and your academic background you could be a very attractive candidate--especially with your background in cognition. However, you MUST focus upon your coursework, and upon research opportunities during your doctoral studies--especially opportunities to serve on research teams with senior faculty and to present at conferences and publish. Rather than trying to find jobs right now, I suggest that you really need to find learning opportunities now that will give you a realistic chance at a job later.