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[august_leo]

I've really started hating writing letters of recommendation (LORs). I find it particularly frustrating here in the UK. I'll have former students ask for letters for a job (tell me I might be contacted), then they will get the job, then the employer will ask me to complete a form/write a letter. The student was already given the job--in many cases the student has already started work. Why do I bother?! I don't "get" writing letters of recommendation for someone the employers have already hired.

So, how detailed should these forms be? For letters, I can just change the date and job. That's fine. But for forms how long do my answers have to be? Can I just write "good communication skills. highly recommend"?

It feels dumb to go on and on and write a real letter like I would if I was trying to convince the employer to interview the student. ...It all feels like a waste of my time if the student already has the job.

[wegie]

In the UK, if it's for a job, pretty much all they're asking for is confirmation that a) stude got the degree they are claiming, b) stude wasn't an axe murderer and c) stude is who they say they were.

They're not recommendations, they're references. There's a subtle difference. They're asking for confirmation not for a promotion of the ex-stude's chances. For most of your ex-studes a form letter is all they need: stude X studied at <insert uni and dept> between <dates>. I was their lecturer for <courses>, and found them a <insert compliments if you really want, but don't say monumental pain in the arse>. Stude gained a <grade> in my course(s) and a <degree grade> overall. I know of no reason why stude will not make a worthy addition to your organisation.

[august_leo]

Thanks. I'll try to think of it that way (though I still thought references came up before the offer).

I don't have a problem with my letters (which sound a lot like what you said). But, when I get a FORM from the NHS/Bupa/British Airways/Other and they have 1 box for me to write about honesty and one box for teamwork and one box for work ethic... and 6 other boxes, how detailed should those be? There is room for 2-3 sentences, but handwriting 18 sentences is tedious, especially when it doesn't seem like it matters (student has job).

On Edit:
I'm wondering: is it ok to answer "comment on the candidate's honesty" by saying She is honest and trustworthy or should I keep wasting my time writing She is honest and trustworthy. Whilst working in my lab, she handled confidential documents and money. She thoroughly understands the importance of confidentiality.

[wegie]

Thanks. I'll try to think of it that way (though I still thought references came up before the offer).

In theory, you're not supposed to start until the references arrive. And in practice the offer can be rescinded if a dodgy reference arrives.

I'm wondering: is it ok to answer "comment on the candidate's honesty" by saying She is honest and trustworthy or should I keep wasting my time writing She is honest and trustworthy. Whilst working in my lab, she handled confidential documents and money. She thoroughly understands the importance of confidentiality.

I've never had to do a form, so I suspect what scotia/expatinuk/science_expat et al will have to say will have more value, but I'd take the middle ground and use sentences 1 and 2 of your answer.

[sacroiliac]

Why not send them your "normal" pre-written LOR, staple it to the form, and in one or more of the boxes on the form write "see LOR".

I don't have a problem with my letters (which sound a lot like what you said). But, when I get a FORM from the NHS/Bupa/British Airways/Other and they have 1 box for me to write about honesty and one box for teamwork and one box for work ethic... and 6 other boxes, how detailed should those be? There is room for 2-3 sentences, but handwriting 18 sentences is tedious, especially when it doesn't seem like it matters (student has job).

[the_walrus]

No suggestions, just want to express solidarity.  I hate these f***ing things.  Why can't the admin just check the uni records and confirm they were a student here and received a degree.  It's such a monumental waste of academic time.

[daniel_von_flanagan]

And here I thought the thread would be about Tolkien.

I hate forms as well.  Not quite the same thing, but I recently had a student apply for dozens of graduate programs in a field where the graduate programs in both the US and England seem to be in love with forms.  On all of the paper forms I put a red X across the page, wrote "see attached letter", and attached a letter.

I wish, when it came to forms with fatuous entries, employers and graduate admissions offices would just kick the hobbit. - DvF

[empyrean_aisles]

Just on the isn't-it-a-waste-of-time-to-write-a-reference-if-they've-already-got-the-job point: they may well rescind an already made job offer if the letters of reference cast doubt on the student.

I had an acquaintance who applied to law firms following an MPhil, and was told by a big firm that they were offering him a place - all they needed to do was to get the letters from his referees. And then the acquaintance got an unexpected phone call to say, I'm sorry, we've received your letters of reference and we're withdrawing your job offer. So it does happen.

[qrypt]

Just on the isn't-it-a-waste-of-time-to-write-a-reference-if-they've-already-got-the-job point: they may well rescind an already made job offer if the letters of reference cast doubt on the student.

I had an acquaintance who applied to law firms following an MPhil, and was told by a big firm that they were offering him a place - all they needed to do was to get the letters from his referees. And then the acquaintance got an unexpected phone call to say, I'm sorry, we've received your letters of reference and we're withdrawing your job offer. So it does happen.

But this leads to the OP's point -- it's a waste of everyone's time for things to work like this.  If the letters for candidates considered desirable for shortlisting were required before the interview, you wouldn't waste time interviewing a candidate like this. 

[wegie]

Just on the isn't-it-a-waste-of-time-to-write-a-reference-if-they've-already-got-the-job point: they may well rescind an already made job offer if the letters of reference cast doubt on the student.

I had an acquaintance who applied to law firms following an MPhil, and was told by a big firm that they were offering him a place - all they needed to do was to get the letters from his referees. And then the acquaintance got an unexpected phone call to say, I'm sorry, we've received your letters of reference and we're withdrawing your job offer. So it does happen.

But this leads to the OP's point -- it's a waste of everyone's time for things to work like this.  If the letters for candidates considered desirable for shortlisting were required before the interview, you wouldn't waste time interviewing a candidate like this. 

But then you're getting towards the situation in the US which everybody bemoans at length in the Job Seeking threads, where you have to arrange for letters of recommendation up front for every bloody job. At least this way around you only have to write letters when the person gets to the short list/gets the job.

One other point. If you write your letter on a computer attached to the university network, the person concerned can put in a request to the university Data Protection Officer to see what you have written. In the case of the person who lost their job offer, they'd be perfectly within their rights to sue if anything they saw on a letter of reference retrieved that way wasn't perfectly correct.

[qrypt]

Just on the isn't-it-a-waste-of-time-to-write-a-reference-if-they've-already-got-the-job point: they may well rescind an already made job offer if the letters of reference cast doubt on the student.

I had an acquaintance who applied to law firms following an MPhil, and was told by a big firm that they were offering him a place - all they needed to do was to get the letters from his referees. And then the acquaintance got an unexpected phone call to say, I'm sorry, we've received your letters of reference and we're withdrawing your job offer. So it does happen.

But this leads to the OP's point -- it's a waste of everyone's time for things to work like this.  If the letters for candidates considered desirable for shortlisting were required before the interview, you wouldn't waste time interviewing a candidate like this. 

But then you're getting towards the situation in the US which everybody bemoans at length in the Job Seeking threads, where you have to arrange for letters of recommendation up front for every bloody job. At least this way around you only have to write letters when the person gets to the short list/gets the job.

No, I mean ask for letters only for a "long short-list", then invite people with some knowledge of what their referees say.  I agree there is lots of waste in asking for letters from everyone who applies. 

[drspouse]

If I have one of these forms, I will sometimes email requesting an e-form pointing out that I am BUSY and do not want to hand-write stacks of forms. Then copy and paste from my usual letter.

Otherwise approx 3 words per box...

Note also that you can be on shaky ground when giving information on attendance and health - especially health. I write in these boxes "data protection does not allow me to give this information".  Health issues are the student's business and if they choose to share them with you, it's not your choice to pass them on to a third party.  This would apply whether the student had good (as far as you know) or poor health.