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[h2odragon]

My remarks are in response to today's article in the subject line:

My head is spinning from the public education sector's political posturing.  This country's education system is coming apart at the seams and you have this polarization of the public education sector once again targeting the for-profit sector.  The argument is still alive and kicking.  If you all keep this up China will own this country in the next 30 years.  IT IS TIME STOP IT. 

There are problems, serious problems on both sides of the argument. The goal should be how EVERYONE can work together to turn this country around.  It is 'all hands on deck.' 

Perhaps there are issues with the for-profit sector. List them; work together to make it better.  But for goodness sake, avoid severe measures.  This country needs all the help they can get and that includes for-profits. 

Now, let’s look at the public sector for a minute – tax revenues are shrinking on the Federal and State level and as a result, every day public sector schools are sacking staff, cutting programs, increasing tuition and turning away students.  I won't get into the research I’ve seen which reveals how poorly public sector schools perform at graduating students.   

First off, there is nothing wrong with the phrase ‘for-profit.’  Um, if I recall, some of you public sector folks teach that concept as part of the American enterprise system and it’s called CAPITALISM.  If you don’t join hands with the for-profits, you will kiss this country good bye in the not too distant future. 

Want some proof?  Read the book “Crossing The Finish Line.”  It will tell you a bit about the public education sector issues and how it is severely and negatively impacting the very fabric of our American way of life.

Why the constant attack on for-profits?  You want them to be like registered offenders and have them perform certain tasks that the public education sector would not have to adhere to.  Where is the proof that the public education sector does any better in providing a better education than what consider as your opponents?  Where is the benchmarking to validate and verify that my tax dollars are being spent wisely?  Why aren’t public sector institutions held to a standard, any standard?  It would be helpful if the folks in the public education sector looked at their own VERY deep issues. 

What really concerns me now is how the Obama administration is going to push its ‘American Graduate Initiative' agenda forward, wherein it will fund $12 billion in taxpayer dollars to Community Colleges.  Now that is scary.  Why?   Well, the goal is to graduate 5 million students in the next 10 years.  Has anyone done the math?  It will work out that taxpayers will spend $240,000 per student to obtain a two-year degree if the American Graduate Initiative is legislated. 

At that point, the argument that for-profit tuition is exorbitantly expensive goes right out the window!  Now who is going to be overseeing this huge entitlement to the public education sector?  And, by the way, for profits never had to rely on entitlements, ever. 

Who is going to ensure that students are being tracked for ‘gainful employment’ after they get that $240,000 two-year degree?  OK, so maybe this legislation doesn’t pass; still - who benchmarks how effectively taxpayer dollars are being spent appropriately to achieve degree completion?  Oh, I forgot, a lower percentage of students ever graduate from public sector schools when compared to for-profits.  That's all I need to know. 

Look, at the end of the day both the public sector and for-profit sector have their OWN unique problems.  Why not use the U.S. Department of Education’s committee to find ways to work together to solve this country’s education dilemma and participate TOGETHER in helping put America back to work!   

[temporaryname]

My remarks are in response to today's article in the subject line:

My head is spinning from the public education sector's political posturing.  This country's education system is coming apart at the seams and you have this polarization of the public education sector once again targeting the for-profit sector.  The argument is still alive and kicking.  If you all keep this up China will own this country in the next 30 years.  IT IS TIME STOP IT. 

<snip>

Evidence?

And please avoid giving individual cases (if for no reason other than that if you start talking about isolated cases you have to allow attacks on for-profit education based on a few individual cases of malfeasance). Basically, if you're going to make a claim like this, you should provide evidence that your claim is correct across the board, because if it isn't, then the whole rest of your post starts to feel a bit hollow.

[ucprof]

What article?  I did a search and it came up dry.  There is no link posted on the OP.

[h2odragon]

Here is the link: https://chronicle.com/article/For-Profit-Colleges-See-Dep/49305/

[pete2u]

DFB you've got to be off base here.  Epstein is right on.  Evidence?  Where have you been hiding?  Bottom line is in the last 6 years China has picked up 2.3 million jobs from the U.S.  They are educatiing more graduates in the area of math, science and engineering than the U.S. 

Here is some evidence - http://www.nsf.gov/statistics/infbrief/nsf09308.  Here is more evidence about
China.  http://measuringup.highereducation.org/commentary/introduction.cfm

China’s rapidly growing economy, increasing at about 9% per year since the late 1990s, ranks among the largest in the world. The private sector, which is fueled in part by substantial growth in foreign direct investment that benefits from relatively low costs and a favorable business environment, accounts for about one-half of overall gross domestic product. While incomes are rising rapidly in the coastal areas, wide regional disparities are evident. A stated policy aim is to strive for economic growth that is more knowledge- and innovation-driven, and that is more equally shared among the population. Education figures prominently in this effort.

Educational attainment continues to improve, including higher education. Expansion of educational opportunity has been rapid and substantial, increasing from about 10% of the college-age population enrolled in 1999 to just under 20% in 2006. With 16 million enrolled in higher education, China now stands among the world leaders in this area. Growing graduate unemployment—partly attributed to uneven quality in teaching and learning—has led authorities to call for a more modest 5% annual growth in student numbers, which is still an increase of about 700,000 to 900,000 students annually. China already produces a substantial share of the world’s science and engineering graduates each year. Expansion is being accommodated partly through the growth of private institutions and cross-border provision, as well as growth in public national and provincial institutions, the latter drawing more on tuition fees as a revenue stream. Public funding has targeted research and key disciplines in leading universities. For all programs, new quality-assurance processes are being implemented gradually.

And, here is more evidence - http://www.carnegiefoundation.org/carnegie-connections/news-you-can-use/daily-roundup-november-10-2009.

So, DFB do some research on your own and I think you will find validity to what this post is telling us.   

[ucprof]

Thanks for the link.  Don't know enough about FP to comment on that but regarding China - they now have fellowships to send their own students for a year as exchange student in US - we get a number asking to come with money in hand from China.  Ditto for postdocs.  Have seen several at PhD level in my university.

[der_gadfly]

First question: OP, pepstein,: what FP do you work for? Fess up. Seems like you are shilling (not that I do not agree)

Next: I am really curious: FPs serve a population that does NOT meet the rigid entry reqs for the typical R1/SLAC - which is in the minds of some here, the ONLY TRUE higher education, therefore is inferior. I will go back to my usual argument:
I always ride the subway
I never ride the bus, nor have I EVER ridden a bus
Therefore, Subways are superior to buses. - I know this because I am intimately familiar with the bus system.....

lastly: "Education is all about faculty deciding on who among the elite of the elite should gain access to the hallowed halls of academe, and only those with the promise of becoming parasites recipients of public patronage, who create artwork perform research of their own description, without fear of reprisal (academic freedom) shall decide who will or will not be admitted to the academy will be permitted to enter into the academy for life long perpetuation of a system that was rendered obsolete in the 1500s, yet still exists today because WE say it should shall have any say in the matter".

-
Let me come out with fists up: THIS generation did NOT create the system. The "greatest generation" did it, because they valued education for all. So why not poll that group, who are busy sucking dry the economy, as to whether they TRULY want to back up their claims? Because they would overwhelmingly vote to cut,cut,cut anything that interferes with THEIR ENTITLEMENTS benefits.

[h2odragon]

Hello der_gadfly.  I do not work for any institution public or for-profit.  I am a provider of services to both.  I am involved in recruitment, enrollment, and retention. 

Unlike you, I've been on a subway and a bus.  I would rather drive because I like to control my route and destination.  I hope you get some amusement from this. 

Anyway, I do not sit in the hallowed halls of academe.  I've been busy changing lives for the better for the last 25 years in the corporate world.  The last company I built was sold for enough money that I was able to take some time off.  I sat around for 2 years watching this economy disintegrate. 

During that two-year period, I spent time keeping informed of the current issues in education overall and from that, decided to build another company once again.  And once again, I am creating jobs.  There are 15 people working with me, who are seeking ways to improve the lives of people who need direction in attaining their higher education. 

We've done an extensive amount of research and the end result is the creation of several new models to improve the potential for students to achieve education attainment.  We are designing new methods to help play a role in turning this economy around by supporting student persistence, creating effective online education modalities, thinking about how we can help the public education sector solve some of its budget issues and creating ideas to help the for-profit schools gain stature in the role they play in educating America's students.  Lofty goals indeed, but these are issues that we're involved in.  We have some very bright folks who are passionate about creating positive change.

We're seeking solutions to the problems with education overall.  From coast to coast, there are many issues in the K-12 to the post secondary arena.  I do not have to list them here.  Open your Internet browser, turn on the TV, read a periodical and anyone can see the challenges we face in turning this country around. 

So, instead of everyone turning this post into a forum of bitterness about lack of evidence and finger pointing, I'd rather hear about ideas to solve the problems this country faces.  Education has got to be part of the solution.  I read a newswire this morning that I'd like to share: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/A-New-Normal-for-Higher-prnews-3942864383.html?x=0&.v=1.  I hope this will give DFB some insight into the real challenges this country faces regarding education. 

Lastly, I do not sit in the 'hallowed halls of academe.'  I was not fortunate to have that kind of experience.  However, I walked the halls of corporate America and worked very hard to achieve success.  I want to share that experience with others who seek their education, not for the sake of getting an education, but to put that degree to work and to become productive in this society.  The end result will be a strong economy. 

Once again, if anyone wants to argue his or her point for the sake of being heard, please go to another post.  However, if you do have some constructive ideas and solutions about how to bring together all educational institutions for a common goal, ideas about students achieving educational attainment, ideas about how to solve the post secondary budget crisis, then participate.  This is post is about seeking solutions.  Thanks and a wonderful holiday season to all!  Paul

[prof_smartypants]

The last company I built was sold for enough money that I was able to take some time off.  I sat around for 2 years watching this economy disintegrate. 

Well, aren't you a productive member of society.

Here's some things that you would learn in my research methods class taught at a public institution.

You have to learn about what we call "cause" and "effect." The statistics and reports you provide demonstrate a problem. However, your conclusions that "If you all keep this up China will own this country in the next 30 years." and "If you don’t join hands with the for-profits, you will kiss this country good bye in the not too distant future." is what we call "incendiary rhetoric" and are not linked by evidence to the problem that you identify. They lack a conclusive link between the "problem" and the "solution" as well as any link to a particular "cause" being related to a particular "effect".

This: "Oh, I forgot, a lower percentage of students ever graduate from public sector schools when compared to for-profits." is what we call an "unsubstantiated claim."

When you go on to add, "That's all I need to know." you display what we call, "ignorance." Because anyone involved in education knows that graduation alone is not a measure of success or quality unless it represents the culmination of an actual education where learning is achieved.

And this: "And, by the way, for profits never had to rely on entitlements, ever"

Besides being grammatically suspect, is simply the most ridiculous thing I've read in quite some time. So thank you very much for the laugh. $240 million to community colleges is nothing compared to the bailouts to the private sector the taxpayers just financed.

[h2odragon]

Thanks prof_smartypants.  It's because of people like you that I decided not to pursue those hallowed halls.  Instead, I turned to the real world and my education resulted in that kind of success where graduation alone was not a measure of my personal success. 

To that end, I would like to know if you've ever worked in the real world of work, instead of pontificating about cause and effect.  Instead of thinking about it, I've lived it, many times over.  Furthermore, I will avoid dignifying your comments any further.  The only point I will make is that you are likely part of the problem and not part of the solution. 

Get out from under your desk and into the real world and look at how American society is changing around us.  The word ignorance is appropriate to you in your case as your post indicates:  Apparently you didn't read my last post where I am seeking solutions as opposed to condemnation.  If you can find something positive, some kernel of an idea, then post.  Otherwise, go onto to some other post. 

[navydad]

Ain't it wonderful? Even this forum has become a marketing opportunity. I wonder when someone is going to start putting ads on toilet paper. At least those ads would end up where they belong.

[archman]

To that end, I would like to know if you've ever worked in the real world of work, instead of pontificating about cause and effect.  Instead of thinking about it, I've lived it, many times over.  Furthermore, I will avoid dignifying your comments any further.  The only point I will make is that you are likely part of the problem and not part of the solution. 

Get out from under your desk and into the real world and look at how American society is changing around us.  The word ignorance is appropriate to you in your case as your post indicates:  Apparently you didn't read my last post where I am seeking solutions as opposed to condemnation.  If you can find something positive, some kernel of an idea, then post.  Otherwise, go onto to some other post. 

How surprising, another non-academic telling us how the "real world" operates. I always find these remarks so terribly ironic...

[prof_smartypants]

To that end, I would like to know if you've ever worked in the real world of work, instead of pontificating about cause and effect.  Instead of thinking about it, I've lived it, many times over.  Furthermore, I will avoid dignifying your comments any further.  The only point I will make is that you are likely part of the problem and not part of the solution. 

Get out from under your desk and into the real world and look at how American society is changing around us.  The word ignorance is appropriate to you in your case as your post indicates:  Apparently you didn't read my last post where I am seeking solutions as opposed to condemnation.  If you can find something positive, some kernel of an idea, then post.  Otherwise, go onto to some other post. 

How surprising, another non-academic telling us how the "real world" operates. I always find these remarks so terribly ironic...

archman, did you not read the instructions from the OP? If you cannot find something positive, then go onto to some other post.

[kedves]

pepstein
Innovatiing Higher Education!
New member

Posts: 4

Correlation is causation.  Hyperbole is truth.  Insults persuade readers of one's credibility.  Corporate hall-walkers know best how to maintain and improve America's higher-education system.
 
I think I understand the extra "i" in your under-moniker slogan.  It stands for irony, doesn't it?

[temporaryname]

DFB you've got to be off base here.  Epstein is right on.  Evidence?  Where have you been hiding?  Bottom line is in the last 6 years China has picked up 2.3 million jobs from the U.S.  They are educatiing more graduates in the area of math, science and engineering than the U.S.

<snip>

I repeat:

Evidence?

Others (particularly Prof Smartypants) have noted that you're confusing cause and effect. You're also confusing correlation and causation, and you're making the intro-to-research-methods-student error of basing your argument on raw numbers when the populations being compared are different sizes.

Also, absolutely nothing in what you wrote, even if it were all fully representative of the truth (and I know enough about some of these numbers to know that you're cherry-picking), says anything about a decline in higher education in the US. It may say something about improvements elsewhere, but that doesn't say anything about the US unless you're willing to claim that education is a zero-sum game pitting nations against each other (which would, really, be an odd claim), and even then the accompanying declines outside of China could be located in places not the US.

So, DFB do some research on your own and I think you will find validity to what this post is telling us.   

I have done some research on this on my own, thank you very much. However, I'm not the one making claims here, you are--therefore, the burden of proof is on you to support those claims. It's not my job to do your lit review.