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[bcantaire]

I don't really know where this goes. Maybe it will be moved by the moderator.

I am feeling really let down by my college experience right now, and I thought I would write some thoughts on some issues and see if anyone else has an opinion about these things. I have been posting on here for awhile, because I was seriously considering moving in the direction of getting a Master's or PhD, but I have recently become extremely disillusioned with formal education. To sum this entire post up, I think that K-12 and college fail abysmally to help students to truly learn to think critically and reach their true intellectual potential. I don't know what the true purpose of education is or was supposed to be, but it is failing on so many levels. I may get flamed for this, and I have been told before that I shouldn't criticize formal education until I have worked in it, but I disagree with this. I think that being somewhat outside of it can potentially present a clearer view. Some of you might actually agree with me on some of these points, since I realized by reading different threads that my observations have also been witnessed by many other posters here.

I have been to several colleges so far and I have noticed a few things.  In high school, all of our teachers told us college would be much harder than high school. I was excited about that. It meant I would finally be challenged. As it turns out, college is slightly harder, but it feels a lot like high school all over again. Some of you may say that it must be the colleges I attend, and maybe you would be correct. However, from all that I have read and from knowing kids that graduated from supposedly “better” institutions than my own, I am starting to think most schools are like this.

I think there are several reasons for this.

For one, I think colleges are letting a lot of people in that should not be there. I have seen from these threads that a lot of freshman can't even read or write very well. I have had several older professionals tell me that when they hire recent college grads, the kids STILL can't write. So it seems they are getting through college without ever learning to write, too. That observation about recent college grads seems to line up with the kids I have in all my classes. They can't read, they can't write, and they are too lazy to teach themselves something if the professors aren't doing a good job.  It is especially frustrating when a professor makes me peer review some other student's paper, or I have to engage in an online discussion with other students. When I first started college, I worked very very hard. When I became frustrated with the level of challenge, I slipped and didn't do my work as well. I still got good grades and I realized my teachers were probably grading my work by comparing my work with whatever my peers turned in. That is sad.

The second thing is, I think a lot of colleges can't decide if they want to be serious places of learning, or if they want to be trade schools. It seems they need to offer degrees that will help their students earn a decent living (like accounting, nursing, computer science, etc.), so they can make money off of those students. Those students don't want the first two years of liberal arts courses, because they just want to learn about their chosen major, so it seems to me that they water down those first two years in an effort to keep the students happy.
Those of us that choose to major in something less lucrative (aka something only paying an average of $15 an hour upon graduation), especially those of us that actually have a love for learning and want to be challenged, end up suffering for this because now we are taking part in classes that are not rigorous and have nothing to offer that we couldn't learn by reading a book on our own. I have had many classes like this. Actually, I majored in Biochem for awhile, and discovered that even those introductory classes were a joke. For instance, in a biology class the professor read off a set of slides on a few chapters and every two weeks we had a test. In between we had some homework we answered on Scantron sheets, and then the tests were just multiple choice and short answers. 60% of the students at my school fail this class the first time they take it, yet it is a joke of a class. My school is not THAT bad, either. The caliber of students is about equal to your average LAC, I believe. I eventually stopped showing up. I would just teach myself out of the book and take the test when it came up. It was like my fellow students couldn't be bothered to actually read the book on their own, or that maybe they didn't know how to teach themselves.
When I would read the book, I'd start making connections between the material and other stuff I knew and I'd start having all these new questions. In class and out of class I'd try to get the professors to talk with me about them, but they never ever had any time. It could have just been my school, but it seemed to me that these classes weren't structured to foster critical thinking skills. They were structured to get you to blindly memorize. Same for the labs. Some of my history classes were more intellectually stimulating, but we are talking only a few of the hundreds offered at my school, and they were challenging because the teachers gathered material from many sources and actively engaged in the discussions WITH us.
Perhaps one of the problems is that most of the classes I have taken seem to be structured around materials provided by the publishers of the books – which is EXACTLY how all of my elementary, middle, and high school classes were structured.
It is all about rote memorization, and if they ask you to think critically,  they usually ask you the types of questions that would insult anyone's intelligence.

I realize professors are under a lot of pressure, too, though. From reading the posts on this site, it seems to me that many of you are forced to dumb down your classes for students that can't perform academically like they should be able to, and you often can't fail too many kids because if they are unhappy the students can possibly get you fired with poor evaluations. Many of you also don't get paid nearly enough, some of you don't even have your own offices, and yet you are expected to do a lot of time consuming side work, like paper work, holding office hours, or teaching so many students that a multiple choice test is the only way to manage the class. It really sounds like a no-win situation to me.

It is kind of the same in K-12 because of standardized tests. Those stupid tests practically beg teachers to teach in a rote memorization type format. There is also the question of whether or not K-12 teaching can attract the best and brightest with such low pay. It may also be impossible for a teacher to foster critical thinking in students and help them to reach their full potential if the teacher has never known anything but this way of learning and teaching and has never questioned it.

This makes me wonder what the “experts” in education have to say about all of this? Since the system seems to be so dysfunctional, what exactly are they teaching education majors? I have heard that the education courses in college are the easiest of them all, and that they are painfully slow and apply all the same principles that permeate the rest of the education system. This doesn't sound good to me.

Anyway, on a side note, all of these thoughts have made me wonder why exactly we force children to attend school for such a huge portion of their lives. The college degree is seen as the new high school degree by many professionals, especially since so many students are getting one and since the caliber of graduates has gone down. You almost need a Master's just to set yourself a part and prove that you truly were capable of earning a degree. As I see it, kids now spend 13 years in school and then they go another 2-4 years in order to get a “real” job. After this, they slave away from 9-5 until they hopefully retire at 65. (Where did this arbitrary 9-5 thing come from? Is that some magical number of exactly how many hours it takes to get work done in a day? Is school really just babysitting while the parents are at work?) This seems psychotic to me.

From teaching myself everything in college, I have realized that I probably could have learned a huge amount of material every week when I was younger if the teacher's hadn't given us so much busy work and taught everything so slowly. In tenth grade, we read Hamlet OUT LOUD for over a month. I even went to an expensive private school. We all could have read that book in under a week and talked about it, I bet. I, for one, am tired of paying good money to teach myself out of a book and do meaningless busy work and tests in order to earn a good grade (at this point, grades have just become meaningless abstract concepts to me. They truly mean nothing.)

/rant

I hope I can start a discussion here. I'd like to hear why my observations could be way off-base (really, I would) or what ideas people have about changing things.

[mdwlark]

A.  Hamlet is supposed to be heard "out loud." Go to the play.  All critical thinking is done in coffee shops.  Wear black and skinny glasses to fit in. 


 

[kedves]

I have been to several colleges so far

How did that happen? 

When I became frustrated with the level of challenge, I slipped and didn't do my work as well. I still got good grades and I realized my teachers were probably grading my work by comparing my work with whatever my peers turned in. That is sad.

From your complaints about lack of challenge, I am assuming, of course, that you have a 4.0 and have run out of challenges within your formal educational experience.  If the level of challenge is insufficient to someone with your skills, you might want to read about intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation.  You well get more out of educational experiences, and life in general, if you are motivated by something beyond a grade. 

You might be motivated, for example, by a wish to write more effectively--concisely, credibly, and with strong mechanical skills (e.g., knowledge of the difference between that and who).  You might be motivated by a wish to learn why plays are read aloud in class, or to learn about the history of  the workday and the workweek, or the history of public education.  If these were your goals, you could take steps to work toward them while you still have access to people who can help you and a library for your use.  Lasting knowledge begins with curiosity.

You won't know if your education is good enough until you start to apply your knowledge and skills to something.  It's up to you to find out what that something is.  But please, stop calling yourself and other college students "kids."

[bcantaire]

I have been to several colleges so far

How did that happen? 

When I became frustrated with the level of challenge, I slipped and didn't do my work as well. I still got good grades and I realized my teachers were probably grading my work by comparing my work with whatever my peers turned in. That is sad.

From your complaints about lack of challenge, I am assuming, of course, that you have a 4.0 and have run out of challenges within your formal educational experience.  If the level of challenge is insufficient to someone with your skills, you might want to read about intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation.  You well get more out of educational experiences, and life in general, if you are motivated by something beyond a grade. 

You might be motivated, for example, by a wish to write more effectively--concisely, credibly, and with strong mechanical skills (e.g., knowledge of the difference between that and who).  You might be motivated by a wish to learn why plays are read aloud in class, or to learn about the history of  the workday and the workweek, or the history of public education.  If these were your goals, you could take steps to work toward them while you still have access to people who can help you and a library for your use.  Lasting knowledge begins with curiosity.

You won't know if your education is good enough until you start to apply your knowledge and skills to something.  It's up to you to find out what that something is.  But please, stop calling yourself and other college students "kids."

I took a break from college, moved to another state, married a man in the military, etc., is how I have been to several colleges now.
I am curious and do love to learn, but my whole point about college is that I can learn it all on my own without paying to learn it. That is what is so frustrating. College doesn't have any real value beyond a piece of paper that I think doesn't prove much.

I am currently reading some books about why our society is structured the way it is, and I've also picked up a few books written on how we might be able to fix formal education (if at all.)  I can access a huge amount of material online and in local libraries and bookstores. I think colleges used to be seen as the gatekeepers of a lot of knowledge. It isn't like that anymore.
So, if at any time I want to learn something or become better at something, I can access what I need, regardless of whether or not I am a college student. The only way college could beat this, is if my professors were actually interested in acting like mentors to help me better myself. Most are not interested or don't have time, even though I am technically paying for them to act in that capacity.

I don't think plays should be read aloud by tenth graders who are not interested in the play and can't read very well, anyway. Perhaps they should have just gotten the play on video or audiotape. I've read a bit about the theory behind reading aloud, but I think it becomes kind of pointless after students hit the 8th grade. Besides, reading plays aloud doesn't exactly inspire students to fall in love with the them. Why have the students read the plays, unless you are hoping they will learn to love or at least appreciate their worth?
Leave it to theater class.

I realize this is all pointless, though.
Even though I question the worth of some college degrees, the rest of the United States doesn't. You need one to get a lot of jobs and I know that.

I think I will just start my own business and homeschool my children later on. Maybe travel so they can see and experience the things we are learning about. We can go see those plays, visit museums, and stay in other countries and learn other languages from local teachers. Perhaps I can get them involved in the family business and show them how the real world works and teach them basic math and algebra using real world problems. When they get older, they can go back to high school if they want, or take classes at the local community college if they want to learn calculus or advanced science or get a job that definitely requires a degree (medical doctor, etc.)
That would sure beat them spending 8 hours a day for at least 13 years of their lives doing busy work.


Does anyone have anything else to add except how I would personally benefit from college?
I was hoping to discuss some of the other points I brought up.

[peppergal]

Wow, bcantaire, you've got quite an opinion of yourself.  I have a couple things to say to you.

First, you may think that you are smarter than the average bear, but I can guarantee you that on these boards, you are not.  Your writing is grammatically shaky, and opaque in content.  For example, while complaining about your college experience, what relevance does a 10th grade English class have?  Honestly, had you turned these posts in as a writing assignment to me, I would have given you a D at best.

Furthermore, thank you so much for coming here and insulting us.  You may not realize this, but we are professionals who worked very hard to get where we are.  And yes, in some sense we as faculty are gatekeepers of knowledge.  I don't mean this in the sense that we are trying to keep others from accessing this knowledge, but in a completely different sense.  When I assign a reading to my students, my lecture is not just about the reading, but about 98 different things related to the reading that I have read and my students have not.  I have that knowledge, and I can make the connections between these things for my students.  I can tell them where to find the knowledge they want, and make them aware of things they did not know exist.

I'm sorry that your educational experience has not been satisfying to you.  But please do not assume that all teachers are as incompetent as those you have experience with.  And please do not tell us that we are irrelevant and bad teachers.  You do not know us.  Many of us have inspired students to challenge themselves in ways that you cannot even imagine.

[mdwlark]

Does anyone have anything else to add except how I would personally benefit from college?
I was hoping to discuss some of the other points I brought up.

That is the last thing I would tell you.  You would NOT benefit from college.  Please save your money and stay away.  I especially don't recommend my class. 

[mdwlark]

But please do not assume that all teachers are as incompetent as those you have experience with. 

 

I like most of what you said, peppergal, but I suspect there was nothing wrong with the teachers the OP encountered.

See, bcantaire, there was this old farmer out plowing his field.  A car drove up and the driver asked for directions to the next town.  The old farmer pointed the way.  The driver said to him, "We are moving here.  How will we find the people in this town?  What are they like?" 

The old farmer asked, "How did you find the people in the town you just came from?" 

The driver said, "Oh, they were just wonderful.  Great friendly neighbors, interesting folks, great conversationalists, concerned about the community.  We hated to move away.  We wondered how the people are in the town we are moving to." 

The old farmer said, "I think you will find that they are the same wonderful people as in the town you left." 

The driver said, "I'm so glad to hear that.  Thank you."

The old farmer continued to plow his field.  A second car pulled up and the occupants asked for directions to town.  He again pointed the way.  The driver said, "We are moving here.  How will we find the people in this town?  What are they like?"   

The old farmer asked, "How did you find the people in the town you just came from?" 

The driver said, "Oh, we were so glad to get away.  They were narrow-minded, obtuse unfriendly people." 

The old farmer shook his head.  "I'm afraid you will find the people here to be the same way."

Don't go to college until you decide there is something they can teach you.  Until you do, you will continue to have the same frustrating experiences.  The change has to be in you.  We all have students who think we are terrible and students who write us thank you notes for being wonderful and changing their life.  The two types of students are often in the same class.  And they are both right.  We are just struggling scholars, flawed human beings, trying to present an opportunity for students to learn.  We do know a lot more than you about our subject.  We also see the world in a more expansive way, because of our education and experience.  But we are terrible.  We are wonderful.  Which do you see? 

Teachers have students read Hamlet aloud so that each student can feel the words reverberate inside of their heads and bodies.  So each student, for a brief moment, can be Hamlet.  The words are meant to be spoken, not read, and they aren't the exclusive property of a few good actors in the theatre department.  They are meant to be spoken by everyone.  Go see the play.  Memorize a few soliloquies.  Come back when you realize what you don't know.  You will have to get a lot less smart and a lot more wise before that will happen.

[ghillbilly]

bcantaire - warning - if you came to this forum for support and encouragement this is the wrong place.  As you can see from the other posts, they spend a lot of time spell checking your posts, attempting to belittle you, and telling you how smart they are. 

[pocksuppet]

bcantaire - warning - if you came to this forum for support and encouragement this is the wrong place.  As you can see from the other posts, they spend a lot of time spell checking your posts, attempting to belittle you, and telling you how smart they are.  

You show up here to ask us why we're all so down on the world's largest diploma and why we make so little money, and now you're sticking around to warn others about how unfriendly we are.  That really is very selfless of you, but perhaps there's a puppy somewhere in your town that could use adopting?

Anyone who comes here looking for a fight should neither be surprised when they find it, or disappointed when they don't.

[onion]

Bcantaire and Ghillbilly,
Why are you on this forum if neither of you are academics and don't hold higher education or the profession in esteem?  What do you hope to gain from coming here and insulting the lot of us?  These are sincere questions.


Posted at same time as Pocksuppet, and I agree.

[ghillbilly]

Cause it's fun to see you get so excited about viewpoints different than your own :)

[polly_mer]

The problem that you encountered, Bcantarie, stems from the fact that you let your schooling get in the way of your education (Twain, Churchill and several others have famous quotations to that effect).  If you want to know one particular topic in depth, then formal schooling with classes, tests, and grades is not necessarily a particularly efficient way to go about getting that knowledge.  That is the purpose of graduate school: to focus on one tiny area in exquisite detail for an extended period of time with mentors.

If, however, you view the formal parts of schooling as a way to get exposure to what the world has to offer and a jumping off point to further your education in a life-long learning way, then most schools are moderately successful.  Yes, many people are in college who should not be there and if society were set up better with more apprenticeships instead of classroom time, then more people of college age would be prepared for reasonable jobs instead of in classrooms pointedly refusing to learn what is being presented.

On the other hand, college is often what you make of it.  If you do only what is required to get an A, then you have wasted your time.  Why didn't you go to office hours of professors and engage in those conversations you wanted?  Most of us would be thrilled to have that kind of student.  Did you sign up for an honors thesis?  Did you get involved with campus clubs devoted to your academic interests?  Why didn't you seek out other students, faculty, and community members in clubs or informal settings like coffee houses to have the deep discussions you wanted?  Let me assure you that on every campus, there are people who have those discussions on a regular basis outside of classrooms.  Have you joined a book club?

Yes, formal education is wasted on many people at certain points in their lives.  Yes, too many people view a college degree as a ticket to a job instead of a certificate of achievement in a given area.  A non-negligible fraction of us have experienced that as teachers and students.  However, it is still far easier to get a proper mentor in a given academic pursuit by going to the places where educated people who want to teach hang out (i.e., colleges) than by wandering the world at large chanting:

We don't need no education.  
We don't need no thought control.  
No dark sarcasm in the classroom.  
Teachers, leave them kids alone

--Pink Floyd The Wall "Another Brick in the Wall"

[onion]

Cause it's fun to see you get so excited about viewpoints different than your own :)

Well, in your excitement don't send me any more nasty PMs. Thanks.

[polly_mer]

Cause it's fun to see you get so excited about viewpoints different than your own :)

There's espousing a non-standard view from different life experiences and then there's putting itching powder down shirts.

One is a valuable check on reality and one is being a jerk.

[kedves]

When "viewpoints" means "uninformed opinions," understand that some of us have a reflexive impulse to educate--based on what we do during the week and on the large number of papers with that characteristic that we are spending our weekend grading.