next »

[droid]

Hello,

We would like to offer a course both for undergraduate and graduate credit. I wonder what considerations and logistical matters need to be taken into account with this?

If anyone can share their experience or known pitfalls with this approach I would be grateful.

-droid

ps: I wasn't sure which forum subgroup to post to, this seemed the best.

[digger]

We will do that on occasion – if it a senior level class. The class is cross-listed (560/860) so students can sign up for appropriate credit and your department receives additional FTE's. It does create more work for the faculty, but, if you love working with grad students as much as I do – not a problem. Generally, the expectations from grad students are much higher – amount and quality of work produced, increased readings, and scheduled one-on-ones with faculty. The only time we have encountered a problem is when the grad student decided to slack off – they were treated accordingly. In most cases, the presence of grad students in a class raises the bar and enthusiasm for everyone. I suppose it also depends on the subject and overall size of the class. YMMV

[cgfunmathguy]

My grad school did this routinely. Grad students in the class were required to make a presentation in class on a topic related to the course material but not covered in class. Class content, roster, and syllabus determined how long the presentation needed to be, but the work was about what was put into an extra assignment or two and had to be turned in on the day of the presentation.

[capper]

Virtually all of our graduate classes are cross listed 400/500 (undergrad/grad) as we have a small masters program (not a Ph.D. granting university).  The rule of thumb is that the graduate students are meant to do some additional project or additional work to make the course more challenging.  I taught a seminar last year in which a different student lectured and guided discussion each day.  Graduate students presented at least two chapters/papers while the others did one, and the grad students were given the more theoretical chapters and papers to present.  However, some of my colleagues simply argue that the case is a masters level class and undergraduates are allowed to enroll, thus eliminating the need for additional graduate assignments. 

[cgfunmathguy]

Virtually all of our graduate classes are cross listed 400/500 (undergrad/grad) as we have a small masters program (not a Ph.D. granting university).  The rule of thumb is that the graduate students are meant to do some additional project or additional work to make the course more challenging.  I taught a seminar last year in which a different student lectured and guided discussion each day.  Graduate students presented at least two chapters/papers while the others did one, and the grad students were given the more theoretical chapters and papers to present.  However, some of my colleagues simply argue that the case is a masters level class and undergraduates are allowed to enroll, thus eliminating the need for additional graduate assignments. 

Wow. I guess this is institution-dependent. The additional requirements were part of the written rules of the School of Graduate Studies. If no undergrads enrolled, it could be treated as an all-grad-student class. Otherwise, additional work was required, even there was only one undergrad in the class.

[corny]

My grad school department also did this. The way it was handled varied from professor to professor (one prof met for informal discussion with the grad students as a separate group once a week, in addition to the regular class meetings, for example). In general though it wasn't just *more* work but *different* work. For example, undergrads wrote two or three short papers and/or took exams, while grad students were instead expected to produce one 20-page paper as they would in a regular grad seminar.

[droid]

These are great posts and very useful. Thanks .. I will keep reading them :-)

[science_expat]

As an undergrad, I took a couple of graduate level classes and had to meet the same expectations as the grad students. I guess the feeling was that if I were stupid brave enough to believe that I could handle that level then I'd have to demonstrate it.

[scampster]

As an undergrad, I took a couple of graduate level classes and had to meet the same expectations as the grad students. I guess the feeling was that if I were stupid brave enough to believe that I could handle that level then I'd have to demonstrate it.

This is the way it was at my undergrad university (in fact, I would not be a PhD student now if I hadn't stumbled into graduate level classes as an undergrad). One thing that has surprised me as I have moved between universities is that my masters and PhD schools put up barriers to undergraduates freely taking a grad class, which is a pity I think. And thus the need for this cross-listing and extra requirements.

FWIW, I enrolled in some classes that were listed as upper level undergrad classes and got graduate credit for them with no difference in work as an undergrad. Of course, there was a limit on how many of those counted. The ones that were cross-listed with two numbers usually had an extra project or something.

[subsavant]

We cross-list many classes at senior-masters level (5xx-6xx), with as noted, higher expectations for the grad students. Note however, that these expectations (difference between UG-G) must be spelled out explicitly in the course syllabus. Also, you cannot lump tests results together -- the UG and Grads must be grouped and normalized separately.

[mleok]

There appears to be two possibilities:

1. There is a single course number, and the course is open to both graduates and undergraduates.

2. There are two course numbers, depending on whether one registers for graduate or undergraduate credit.

Case #1 is appropriate if the course is numbered as a graduate course, in which case, the expectations and curve for the course should be the same for both graduates and undergraduates. I would try to avoid a situation in which graduate students were allowed to receive graduate credit for an undergraduate numbered course; such a situation is best handled in case #2.

In case #2, one should hold the students receiving graduate credit for the class to a higher standard and more rigorous curve. Extra or more challenging assignments or exams might also be appropriate in this situation.

[resis]

We also do this. Graduate students can take certain 400-level classes for graduate-level credit, but they receive a modified syllabus that details how their assignments will be more intensive than those the seniors will complete.

[tc2004]

The most influential class I took in undergrad was a class with undergrad/grad students. The graduate students had extra requirements of course. Experiencing the class with them, help me to understand what graduate school was like and motivated to work harder to keep up with them.

I believe the course had 2 different numbers for graduate students and undergraduate students.

I also learn what pedagogy meant after a PhD student was nice enough to tell me. Whenever I hear that world I think of her.

[quantmeister]

At my previous institution, a graduate "certificate" program in basketweaving was created, ostensibly to help folks retool but primarily to craft minimally qualified adjuncts (hence the program's 18-credit-hour duration) for fresh/soph service courses. These were essentially combined undergrad/grad sections, differing only in the instructor-of-record. This was because (surprise!) the vast majority were being taught by folks who weren't members of the graduate faculty. In fact, close to half were being taught by folks who weren't on the tenure track!

Interestingly, when the higher-ups in charge of accreditation liaison got wind of this, this program simply vanished!

[mellonia]

We do cross-listed courses, and (though it's up to the prof) normally expect extra work of the grads. There are differing opinions about how well this works.

Recently another unit got in trouble when externally reviewed, because too many of their courses were of the cross-listed variety.  Seems a fair number of their Master's students had been undergrads in the program and they had too few courses available to take, to meet grad requirements.  So, doing this for some courses is good, but depending on where your grad students come from, it perhaps shouldn't be done for all.