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[mad_doctor]

When I was at a 4/4 they had a 5-pub "recommendation", but only two of them had to be journals, and they could be any kind of journal (even an in-house journal that for all practical purposes had a 100% acceptance rate for faculty), and they also counted conferences and other activities as pubs.  Even with that, only one of my colleagues and myself would have made tenure with those "recommendations".  The others couldn't even get 5 regional conferences with that workload.  Part of the problem, I think, is that these 4/4 schools typically have excessive service requirements on top of the teaching loads, such as mandatory attendance at student events, lots of committees, mandatory recruiting service, and many have 3 - 4 preps per term, etc. that make it almost impossible to pursue any kind of research.  Ironically, it is very difficult to maintain effective teaching standards at these "teaching" universities.

We really need to make a new distinction between teaching universities, since the usual research university/ teaching university distinction is a disservice to the many teaching universities that are serious about teaching and research, but only a little less research-oriented than the research universities.  For instance, we refer to universities that have a 3/3 load with 4 - 5 refereed journals required for tenure as "teaching universities". Maybe we should talk about "Teaching 1" and "Teaching 2" universities?  Come to think of it, since effective teaching suffers so greatly at universities that have a 4/4 load, 6 -8 preps per year, excessive service requirements, and nominal research requirements, it is really dishonest to include them in a category with genuine "teaching" universities.

meeeeehh.

You have me in spirit.

But, I've taught a 4/4 before and, frankly, if you can't manage five regional conference papers in six years time, then I think you probably ought find another line of work, myself.

I'd wonder if you were doing the base level of reading required for class/lecture prep.

That is NOT a heavy publication requirement.  

I absolutely agree, however, that overloading teaching diminishes teaching quality, as well.  Schools that are serious about being "teaching focused" should ensure that faculty have adequate time for course-related research and contact with students out of the classroom.

That's my point, john_p.  It's misleading to call them "teaching universities", since there are so many teaching universities out there that really support effective teaching and have genuine, albeit modest research requirements.  The universities I'm talking about pay lip service to all that, but put way too many burdens on their faculty that prevent them from doing either teaching or research very well.

There are two kinds of 4/4 universities.  If I have a 4/4 with one or two preps per term and minimal service requirements, I agree with you that it's possible to expect maybe four journal articles for tenure and decent performance in the classroom.  Then there are the 4/4 schools where faculty have 3 or 4 preps per term, 6 - 8 per year, sometimes mandatory overloads, excessive service requirements, lots of committees, overkill on office hours (for example, "posted" and "unposted" office hours), mandatory participation in campus events, recruiting, very nominal research expectations if any at all, and so on.  At a university like that faculty can really do nothing well because they're expected to fill all their discretionary time helping everybody else do a little of everything poorly.  You're right - it's not possible to do the reading required for normal classroom preps and lecture in circumstances like that, but that's usually no concern of the admins at these schools.  I don't feel right calling that a "teaching university" without any kind of qualifiers or explanation. (I've been at both kinds of 4/4, BTW).

[john_proctor]

When I was at a 4/4 they had a 5-pub "recommendation", but only two of them had to be journals, and they could be any kind of journal (even an in-house journal that for all practical purposes had a 100% acceptance rate for faculty), and they also counted conferences and other activities as pubs.  Even with that, only one of my colleagues and myself would have made tenure with those "recommendations".  The others couldn't even get 5 regional conferences with that workload.  Part of the problem, I think, is that these 4/4 schools typically have excessive service requirements on top of the teaching loads, such as mandatory attendance at student events, lots of committees, mandatory recruiting service, and many have 3 - 4 preps per term, etc. that make it almost impossible to pursue any kind of research.  Ironically, it is very difficult to maintain effective teaching standards at these "teaching" universities.

We really need to make a new distinction between teaching universities, since the usual research university/ teaching university distinction is a disservice to the many teaching universities that are serious about teaching and research, but only a little less research-oriented than the research universities.  For instance, we refer to universities that have a 3/3 load with 4 - 5 refereed journals required for tenure as "teaching universities". Maybe we should talk about "Teaching 1" and "Teaching 2" universities?  Come to think of it, since effective teaching suffers so greatly at universities that have a 4/4 load, 6 -8 preps per year, excessive service requirements, and nominal research requirements, it is really dishonest to include them in a category with genuine "teaching" universities.

meeeeehh.

You have me in spirit.

But, I've taught a 4/4 before and, frankly, if you can't manage five regional conference papers in six years time, then I think you probably ought find another line of work, myself.

I'd wonder if you were doing the base level of reading required for class/lecture prep.

That is NOT a heavy publication requirement.  

I absolutely agree, however, that overloading teaching diminishes teaching quality, as well.  Schools that are serious about being "teaching focused" should ensure that faculty have adequate time for course-related research and contact with students out of the classroom.

That's my point, john_p.  It's misleading to call them "teaching universities", since there are so many teaching universities out there that really support effective teaching and have genuine, albeit modest research requirements.  The universities I'm talking about pay lip service to all that, but put way too many burdens on their faculty that prevent them from doing either teaching or research very well.

There are two kinds of 4/4 universities.  If I have a 4/4 with one or two preps per term and minimal service requirements, I agree with you that it's possible to expect maybe four journal articles for tenure and decent performance in the classroom.  Then there are the 4/4 schools where faculty have 3 or 4 preps per term, 6 - 8 per year, sometimes mandatory overloads, excessive service requirements, lots of committees, overkill on office hours (for example, "posted" and "unposted" office hours), mandatory participation in campus events, recruiting, very nominal research expectations if any at all, and so on.  At a university like that faculty can really do nothing well because they're expected to fill all their discretionary time helping everybody else do a little of everything poorly.  You're right - it's not possible to do the reading required for normal classroom preps and lecture in circumstances like that, but that's usually no concern of the admins at these schools.  I don't feel right calling that a "teaching university" without any kind of qualifiers or explanation. (I've been at both kinds of 4/4, BTW).

Yeah.  True that.

I think these programs are the educational equivalent of "puppy mills" or factory farming (vs. the buccolic images of Grampa's house on the hill by the river they like to conjure up for prospective students and trustees).

[clean]

Our requirements are a minimum of 3 peer reviewed papers and a total of seven intellectual contributions (that include publications, proceedings or presentations at conferences, book chapters, and such).  We dont have any real guidelines on what counts as a publication, so coming up with only 3 can be problematic.

These should be in the last 5 years.

So, we are looking for about 2 every 3 years.

We teach a 3/3 load, but our class sizes can be large.  Ive taught 2 classes with more than 90 and an MBA class in the same semester.  Fortunately, my classes are smaller, but they are advanced, senior level classes and involve more preparation, so it is a bit of a wash.

Good luck.

[hikerprof]

Thanks for the responses to far.

Mad_doctor, your point is important. There is simply no way that my university is a "teaching" one. We have 4-8 preps a year and regularly teach between 100 and 150 students. We are expected to hold 5 office hours a week and do a lot of committee and service work. We do all of the department advising. There is not a lot of time to focus on good teaching or good research, for that matter.

I think our university would like to view itself as more of a research institution, but this is a bit laughable as well. What happens is that a lot of people get tenure and stop researching and publishing completely. Very few people seem to be able to do everything well (teaching, research, and service). This is why some people in the department think a 4 or 5 peer-reviewed article requirement for tenure is a bit much.

[magistra]

I'd consider class size and number of new preps, if possible.  This can make a difference as well.

For presentations: this sounds high to me, but then, my "regional" conference is about half the country, so it's often not feasible to go.  What kind of conference budget do you have?  How many, how close, and how expensive?    This might not be an issue, but if you're out in the middle of nowhere and have no budget it could hamper presenting.

Is it possible to add in choices?  Say, so many conference presentations or book reviews equal one article.  A bit of flexibility might make it easier to handle the higher amount.

[oldfullprof]

I think these programs are the educational equivalent of "puppy mills" or factory farming (vs. the buccolic images of Grampa's house on the hill by the river they like to conjure up for prospective students and trustees).

Maybe, but I wouldn't give a dime's worth of difference if you compare them to the undergraduate education proffered up by grad students and harried junior professors at research universities.  I've taught at two 4-4s and two 3-3s.  For me, the main diffference in whether the campus is rural or urban.  The rural ones in particular can be idiotic due to old, ossified faculty cultures.  A dynamic urban 4-4 or 3-3 can be entirely different.  It's essential to have a research expectation (with real teeth) (maybe a book or three articles for tenure in six years) to get quality teaching.  Actually, this happens automatically as hires come more and more from research grad programs.

[mad_doctor]

Maybe I'm a little old school about this, but I think any insitution that has either no research or nominal research requirements shouldn't be allowed to call themselves a college or university.  If the faculty don't contribute (or by overburdensome administrative policy are prevented from doing so) to the ongoing life of their discipline, I wonder what it is that they're teaching?  They should find another name to call themselves.

[neutralname]

I'd agree with all the comments about the possibility and need for publication and scholarly activity with a 4/4 load.  (Although not everyone does at my school, which has meant I've been on the losing side of many tenure and promotion decisions.  If you find the right school, you can get away with a lot.) 

I would also point out that simply talking about a 4/4 load does not really spell out conditions enough.  How many preparations are required on average, how big is the average class size, how much time are faculty expected to spend on campus talking to students, how much administrative work are faculty expected to do, how much secretarial support is there, and is it possible to get a reduced load if doing research?  If classes are small, and only 1 or 2 preps are required per semester, the amount of work teaching 4/4 can be the same as for someone teaching 2/2 with large classes and 2 preps per semester.

[glowdart]

Then there are the 4/4 schools where faculty have 3 or 4 preps per term, 6 - 8 per year, sometimes mandatory overloads, excessive service requirements, lots of committees, overkill on office hours (for example, "posted" and "unposted" office hours), mandatory participation in campus events, recruiting, very nominal research expectations if any at all, and so on.  At a university like that faculty can really do nothing well because they're expected to fill all their discretionary time helping everybody else do a little of everything poorly.  You're right - it's not possible to do the reading required for normal classroom preps and lecture in circumstances like that, but that's usually no concern of the admins at these schools.  I don't feel right calling that a "teaching university" without any kind of qualifiers or explanation. (I've been at both kinds of 4/4, BTW).

Yeah, that's us.  We've been told 4-6 peer-reviewed articles, but most people who have gone up recently have 2-4 purportedly "peer-reviewed" publications and then conferences and other evidence of research.  We keep getting told that those are the "old" numbers and the new regime wants the "new" numbers from the current TT people. 

[whiteknight]

You might also try this thread, which discusses tenure standards in the humanities:

http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/topic,64093.0.html

[polly_mer]

I would also point out that simply talking about a 4/4 load does not really spell out conditions enough.  How many preparations are required on average, how big is the average class size, how much time are faculty expected to spend on campus talking to students, how much administrative work are faculty expected to do, how much secretarial support is there, and is it possible to get a reduced load if doing research?  If classes are small, and only 1 or 2 preps are required per semester, the amount of work teaching 4/4 can be the same as for someone teaching 2/2 with large classes and 2 preps per semester.

I agree that merely stating X/Y load is not a reasonable way to gauge workload.  Technically, I have a 3/3 position.  However, those three classes come to me standing in front of a classroom 18 hours a week with another five hours of mandatory office hours.  I have no assistance of any kind, other than the fact that the departmental secretary will make photocopies if I can get her the originals two days before I need them.  Yeah, it's just one prep this semester and only 50 students, but when the time required in the classroom is already almost half of my normal fifty hour work week, research ain't getting done at the rate it would if I were only in the classroom 9 hours a week with three mandatory office hours, the standard for other 3/3 loads for my colleagues at other schools who have TA's and graders.  I suppose if I were a more dedicated person, then I would be doing research for the hour most days that I spend writing on these fora to get in my extra time.

[csgirl]

I am in a department with a 4/4 load, 4 preps a semester. It is an odd situation because my college is the only one with such a heavy load. The other colleges have lighter loads and are more research oriented. No one in my department seems to be able to tell me what the tenure expectations are. The chair insists that a few pubs in regional conferences would be fine. Other people in the department say no, you need journal pubs. What is even weirder is that we have two other tenure track people who don't have to publish at all because they are on the "professional track" - all they have to do is some consulting and be active in professional associations. I came in from industry too, but because I have the PhD, they want me on the "research track". Also, other faculty members were able to get tenure because they earned their PhDs, but I obviously can't do that. It is frustrating because in my field (computer science), it is very hard to do publishable research with a 4/4 load. And quite frankly, it is a lot easier to get a PhD than to establish a fresh research program with no graduate students and no hardware support of any kind. I seem to be the only person they have ever had in this situation. I worry about this because I have seen the situation at some other liberal arts schools where computer science people can never make tenure because they can never make the publication requirements while teaching heavy loads. I wonder if I have ended up in one of those situations.

[ls410]

If classes are small, and only 1 or 2 preps are required per semester, the amount of work teaching 4/4 can be the same as for someone teaching 2/2 with large classes and 2 preps per semester.

It is true that I have fewer total students in 4 courses than many people do in 1 lecture class.  But in those 200+ lecture classes, it's scantron exams all the way.  So we can't ignore the heavier grading load.  In all honesty, I love the smaller classes and the chance to do more than just lecture but I would love having more time outside the classroom each week.

[neutralname]

It is true that I have fewer total students in 4 courses than many people do in 1 lecture class.  But in those 200+ lecture classes, it's scantron exams all the way.  So we can't ignore the heavier grading load.  In all honesty, I love the smaller classes and the chance to do more than just lecture but I would love having more time outside the classroom each week.

Scantron exams all the way?  I can understand using them to some extent, but I can't imagine using them exclusively for any course that requires students to develop reasoning or interpretive skills.  I'm sure we will find people with large classes (although I'm not sure about those with 200+ students and without TAs) who assign essays or at least short answer questions.

[mad_doctor]

I am in a department with a 4/4 load, 4 preps a semester. It is an odd situation because my college is the only one with such a heavy load. The other colleges have lighter loads and are more research oriented. No one in my department seems to be able to tell me what the tenure expectations are. The chair insists that a few pubs in regional conferences would be fine. Other people in the department say no, you need journal pubs. What is even weirder is that we have two other tenure track people who don't have to publish at all because they are on the "professional track" - all they have to do is some consulting and be active in professional associations. I came in from industry too, but because I have the PhD, they want me on the "research track". Also, other faculty members were able to get tenure because they earned their PhDs, but I obviously can't do that. It is frustrating because in my field (computer science), it is very hard to do publishable research with a 4/4 load. And quite frankly, it is a lot easier to get a PhD than to establish a fresh research program with no graduate students and no hardware support of any kind. I seem to be the only person they have ever had in this situation. I worry about this because I have seen the situation at some other liberal arts schools where computer science people can never make tenure because they can never make the publication requirements while teaching heavy loads. I wonder if I have ended up in one of those situations.

Can you do research on your students?