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[kedves]

The point is that though that "1st-gen college student" does not seem to be a useful indicator of whether the student will choose a 2-year over a 4-year.  Roughly 2.5 times as many student attend 4-year schools as attend 2-years.  (This is as of last year, and includes the recent bump in CC attendance.) Even if CCs have twice as high a percentage of 1st-gens as 4-years, it still must be the case that most 1st-gens opt to attend a 4-year over a 2-year, since 2.5/2>1. - DvF

Oh, yes--in terms of numbers rather than probability, that's right. 

I've never worked for a CC and am watching this with interest.  It seems as if many have had multiple missions and were able to fulfill those when there was no need to ration services.  Now that rationing is necessary, I wonder if they will all stick to first-come, first-served or be pressed to define priorities or lower demand by raising tuition.  I'm also curious to see if more universities will develop their evening, weekend, and online programs to meet some of the demand.

[oldadjunct]

That is very sad about CCNY.  I think that it was the first major system to announce open enrollment back in the early 70's, to a hue and cry of the end of standards, if not the civilized world as we know it.  But when they made the move it was to assist in minority college enrollment; they fought the good fight and led the way.

As to the economic point about many students dropping down a rung (private to state, state to compass point, compass point to CC), that has been the conventional wisdom.  I happen to hold it on a common sense and anecdotal basis, but are any numbers out yet?

And to any parent who holds that two years at a CC is the same as the first two at a four year, I would demur (is that a soft enough word?).  The issue of course has a lot to do with which CC and which four year.  By far the worst students and educational environment I have ever taught in was a private, open enrollment four year.

I am uniformly considered a very rigorous professor (by students, peers and admin), so I know that we can hold to standards in very challenging environments if we are allowed to (I am, and I do). But, the difference is in the fellow students.  Case in point, I have a very intelligent and adept student this semester who, from off hand comments, I know can at a minimum afford the local very major four year State U, where one of my own is.  This student is doing "A" work, but is in my view missing the pressure of being engaged by the other students in the class.

[kedves]

I am uniformly considered a very rigorous professor (by students, peers and admin), so I know that we can hold to standards in very challenging environments if we are allowed to (I am, and I do). But, the difference is in the fellow students.  Case in point, I have a very intelligent and adept student this semester who, from off hand comments, I know can at a minimum afford the local very major four year State U, where one of my own is.  This student is doing "A" work, but is in my view missing the pressure of being engaged by the other students in the class.

It's about an younger age group, but I think you might find this article about the effects of income integration on test scores interesting, if you didn't see it when it was published.  (NYTimes site requires registration, but it's free.)

[mad_doctor]

And to any parent who holds that two years at a CC is the same as the first two at a four year, I would demur (is that a soft enough word?).  The issue of course has a lot to do with which CC and which four year.  By far the worst students and educational environment I have ever taught in was a private, open enrollment four year.

Me too.

[daniel_von_flanagan]

The point is that though that "1st-gen college student" does not seem to be a useful indicator of whether the student will choose a 2-year over a 4-year.  Roughly 2.5 times as many student attend 4-year schools as attend 2-years.  (This is as of last year, and includes the recent bump in CC attendance.) Even if CCs have twice as high a percentage of 1st-gens as 4-years, it still must be the case that most 1st-gens opt to attend a 4-year over a 2-year, since 2.5/2>1. - DvF

Oh, yes--in terms of numbers rather than probability, that's right.

I'm assuming that for a given 1st-gen student X, P[X goes to CC instead of 4-year]=(# of 1st-gen students who go to CCs)/(# of 1st-gen students who go to CC or 4-year).  This is an admittedly crude estimate, but it is all we can do from the numbers, and of course in this model the probability is proportional to the numbers.

I've never worked for a CC and am watching this with interest.  It seems as if many have had multiple missions and were able to fulfill those when there was no need to ration services.  Now that rationing is necessary, I wonder if they will all stick to first-come, first-served or be pressed to define priorities or lower demand by raising tuition.

Me too.  Our state's CCs have some faculty and administrators who seem to us more interested in "elevating" their schools into 4-years than they are in fulfilling their other missions of remediation, specialty/vocational training, backfilling of educational gaps, etc.  - DvF

[cgfunmathguy]

I've never worked for a CC and am watching this with interest.  It seems as if many have had multiple missions and were able to fulfill those when there was no need to ration services.  Now that rationing is necessary, I wonder if they will all stick to first-come, first-served or be pressed to define priorities or lower demand by raising tuition.

Me too.  Our state's CCs have some faculty and administrators who seem to us more interested in "elevating" their schools into 4-years than they are in fulfilling their other missions of remediation, specialty/vocational training, backfilling of educational gaps, etc.  - DvF

LastJob was at a CC, and thus, I take particular interest in watching their happenings. With the new economic climate, many CCs tried to add 4-year degrees (just a few) as protection against a whole host of stupid ideas from state legislators. In LastState, CCs came under the state university system, and tech schools came under a different statewide department. One of the more egregious proposals to come out of the state legislature last year was to merge the CCs with the tech schools. The university system immediately started driving the CCs to add at least one 4-year degree to their offerings to prevent this, as the tech schools are not allowed to offer 4-year degrees. Many CC people I knew thought that merging CCs with the tech schools would lower educational quality for prospective transfer students and might actually be a death knell for the 2-years schools and their transfer programs throughout the state. In NewState, the same trend is occurring, but I'm not sure that the impetus is the same.