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[wonderingj]

I am a mid-career (11 yrs) attorney working full time in private practice.  I have been trying to get into academic administration for a while with no success. I have been rejected for administrative positions by every law school in my area (though I made it to finalist in several of the interviews) and I don't want to move due to my elderly parents.  I have had no success obtaining interviews for non-law school administrative jobs in universities.  Several questions: 

1.  I think that I am interested in student affairs but I am not sure since I have never tried it.  I think I can arrange to do a couple of days of job shadowing in a local institution but can someone suggest any other ways I could test out my interest? I would like to volunteer with students but would have to do it on the weekend or at night.  I hesitate to leave my profession unless I can really test out my interest but I am stumped as how to test this out in a meaningful way while working full time.

2. Should I get a masters in higher education administration to make this career transition?  There are only 2 valid programs here and they range from 1 year full time at $40,000 and 2 years full time for $60,000.  Considering that student affairs jobs apparently pay in the $30-40 (a big drop from my salary) it seems ludicrous to incur this much debt for such low paying jobs.  Also I have to admit the classes sound boring to me and I sort of feel like it is a made up degree (please excuse me for saying this but I am sure I am not the first one to think it, maybe it is a snotty lawyer thing but classes such as the history of higher education and the American College Student do not sound terribly interesting to me). 

Does it make sense for me to do this?  I would then have a jd and masters in higher ed but still would have no experience besides any internships in which I would participate. 


 I am prepared to do the work of the degree but I am afraid of the debt - I also have a mortgage to pay and a car. I could go part time but it would take longer and be really stressful with this job.  I am also wondering if it is better to go full time to be able to make more contacts at universities.  Any suggestions?

 

[alleyoxenfree]

Random thoughts while waiting out insomnia:

1.  Yes, you need more info about student affairs, which depending on the university, can cover everything from activities to advising.  What area of student affairs interests you, and why?  If you think you like advising, for instance, could you create a student intern program at your law firm and mentor the students?  One area where I have seen recent postings that require a JD is in career placement for law students (given the dismal job market).  These require a JD and industry contacts - presumably you have those.  Have you applied for such jobs, and/or could you offer your volunteer services online to the law schools' placement departments to go over student CVs and/or offer them career counseling over lunch or online?  Could you offer to co-host a networking event for law students with some of your professional colleagues, thus meeting the people who currently work in the placement offices? 

2.  Have you met professionally any of the campus attorneys?  Or do you want to leave law entirely?  I know several attorneys who work in administration with personnel decisions, IRB issues, privacy issues, first amendment issues with the campus paper, and so forth.

3.  Yes, many student affairs jobs pay poorly and yet yes, many now require a targeted degree and/or masters in the field.  You may be getting "close" in interviews because they value your training and experience, but not getting the job because you come across as not quite "getting" the industry of academia.  You are not quite qualified for anything other than perhaps being the uni's lawyers.
    If you do not find the courses you've described interesting (and heaven knows, many don't), it's possible you won't like the work in that particular area.  Are you interested in counseling, where you could get an MA or Ph.D. in counseling instead (and perhaps find it interesting)?  How about an MBA with a transition into the financial side of the university?  A recreation management degree with a transition into student activities?  An MLS, plus a JD, would set you up to work in a law library, which can give you a lot of student contact in reference services and even teaching research courses.

4.  You are right that whatever you do about additional education, you will need some job experience and/or internships.  Look for programs with courses that interest you and that set you up for internships or incorporate service learning or internships into the degree credits.

You may have to sell your house and/or move into something cheaper, or rent out a room and go part-time at your firm or take a less demanding law job while you transition careers.  Welcome to the pay scale of academia!  I know several formerly unhappy lawyers who have done it (to administration and librarianship) and are glad.

You have a road ahead, but if you see it as a transition rather than a quick switch, you will find a route.

[wonderingj]

Thanks for your nice message!

I do want to leave law entirely so I am not interested in working in a legal job (such as university counsel's office) on campus.  Nonetheless, I have applied to these since at least it would be in a university but have been unsuccessful so far (though a finalist).   

I have applied/interviewed for career counseling jobs at law schools and also been unsuccessful but that it is a good idea about trying to volunteer in a career counseling office.

I probably would find a Master's in Counseling to be more insteresting since I was a psych major in undergrad but I am not sure if that would show people that I am trying to transition to higher ed. 

Selling my condo seems sort of like a bad idea in this economy since nothing is really selling right now but you are right that I could go part time or try to rent out a room....Thanks again! 

[alleyoxenfree]

I don't know about the universities you are targeting, but many advising and counseling job listings I have seen either require a degree in counseling, or say that it is one of the alternatives (to "higher ed leadership" or "student affairs") that would qualify you for the job.

Also, some reputable MAs in counseling or library science can be done online.

[sciencephd]

The first thing that you need is a convincing narrative explaining why you would want to do this.  You are choosing a new career that does not leverage in any way, or does it ?, your previous education and experience.  Why are you choosing this path ?  Do you have actual knowledge of what this career involves ?  For example, I don't have a clue about it, and I've been in academia for my entire life.  Hopefully you are not expecting that this is a way work your way up into academic administration, ie an academic dean, as that is a different path.

[higherandhigher]

A J.D. is often considered an advantage for positions in diversity, compliance, or student conduct.
It's not straight-up legal work and one doesn't function as an attorney, but legal training can be seen as an asset.

[notaprof]

A J.D. is often considered an advantage for positions in diversity, compliance, or student conduct.
It's not straight-up legal work and one doesn't function as an attorney, but legal training can be seen as an asset.

This is true, in fact I know of a Dean of Students who was a lawyer prior to being hired.  A friend who is currently serving as DOS in another college has practically had to become a lawyer to do his job.  He is responsible for many college policies (related to students) and getting the language fixed so that the college is not at risk is complicated work.  I could see where it would be very useful to a college.  If you were to move into a small college where administrators have to wear many hats, your legal training could be put to good use but you would also be working directly with students as well.

[simplesimon]

Wonderingj:

It sounds to me as if you want to quit your job and engage in volunteer work.  Given the reduction in pay, that is effectively what you will be doing if you pursue the course you outline above.  Would such a career change make sense for someone in your position (mortgage, car, etc)?  I would say “no” but that is for you to decide; some people are compelled to engage in volunteer work.  If you are independently wealthy then you should go for it, but if money is at all a concern (e.g. you need your salary to pay real bills), I would say forget it.  I do not know many adults who could go back to making $30-40K after having enjoyed a professional salary.

I love piling up degrees as much as the next guy, but given your JD and experience, I do not believe you need another degree.  As a practical matter, I suggest you take the time to get to know local campus employees who have the JD and Q&A with them about the range of opportunities available on campus to someone with your background.  In my experience, you will find many such people employed in large state universities (as opposed to private schools).  Seek them out, for informational interviews and guidance.

Sciencephd is correct, you need a compelling narrative that explains to search committees why you are making this change and how and why your past experience will be an asset to them.  Why should they elect to interview you over the hoards of applicants with direct experience, credentials, and membership in professional organizations in the areas of student affairs you are pursuing?  Rightly or wrongly, search committee members will question why someone of your profile is applying for their position.  Your application letter must answer this question.  Similarly, your letter must position you as an informed applicant.  “Student Affairs” covers everything from admissions, to advising, to residence life, to disability services.  What specifically are you interested in?  Are you familiar with the various professional organizations associated with these areas?  Do you belong to any?

As I have said in previous posts, no one likes to be thought of as a fall back position.  Your letter should explain why your application to a given vacancy is a logical progression in your career path.  That may take some rhetorical prestidigitation on your part, but that is the reality.  Good luck.

[wonderingj]

Mr. (or Ms.) Simon,
There is only one large state research university in my city and one state commuter type of university as well.  Can you suggest a few of the positions in which I might find former attorneys to speak to?  So far I have only found one Dean of Students who was an attorney and one director of an "alternative" learning type of program, both in private schools.  (Besides speaking to people in law schools, which I am also doing, of course).

But you are absolutely right that after thinking about this seriously, there is no way I could pay my bills on $30-40k.  Although I am actually not making a huge amount of money as an attorney, I have been in the workforce for 15 years, live in a big city and do have the aforementioned accessories of car/condo to deal with.  Not to mention, I am hoping to start a family someday soonish.  I think I was hoping that someone would tell me that I was mistaken in the research I have been doing about the salary range for these types of positions.   

However, this would not be a fallback option for me.  It is something I wanted to go into straight out of college but I felt pressured by my family to go into law.  It would be MUCH easier for me to stay in law than to switch careers, as I have been trying unsuccessfully to transition to academia for several years now!  That is why I thought possibly getting the MED would help.  but it is true that I would rather not accrue any new debt after paying off my law school loans.  I really appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions.

[alleyoxenfree]

The salary improves, of course, if and when you become management, as in Director of Advising or Director of Career Placement.  But you will still never make what you do as a lawyer, in all likelihood.

Do the state universities have in-house attorneys or do they work with the AG's office?  If the latter, would moving into the AG's office provide a way to get to know more university people?

Are you an alum of either school and/or could you get involved with the alumni association, hosting events, volunteering?  The only decent money I'm aware of in academia, other than football, is in the Development offices, which usually encompass alumni relations and fundraising of all sorts.  Often there are legalities surrounding the setting up of wills and estates so as to give.  It's possible that office could be a crossover spot, although you would only be working with students as staff and in the surrounding environment.

Does the law school hire seasonal readers for admission files?  Could you get to know the admissions staff that way?

[failoutboy]

Have you considered the HR department of a University? This is an area where being a lawyer would definitely add value, while not necessarily requiring you to do "lawyerly" work on a day-to-day basis. I know it's not exactly what you're looking for, but it would at least get you in the door of a University. As an added bonus, the pay is probably better than in student affairs.

[madhatter]

Your skills would be appreciated in a regulatory affairs/compliance office. Sometimes, these offices are known as governmental affairs. These positions tend to be part scrutinizing state, Federal, and local statutes and conversing with assorted agencies, then translating their requirements for the folks at your school to ensure that the laws are being followed and the proper reports are being submitted. Depending on the school, there may be a hefty lobbying component to this type of job as well as the regulatory part.

[simplesimon]

wonderingj:

I have a friend who holds a JD and works for one of the public universities nearby.  She is an assistant provost and makes $220k/year (in this state, salaries of all state employees are a matter of public record and can easily be found online if you know where to look).  I point to this specific example to make my point: there are many opportunities available to someone with your credentials.  You do not need another degree!  However, you do need to network locally to find out what the opportunities are and how to position yourself to be competitive for them.

As in many industries, becoming a known quantity (who you know) in higher education is as important as what you know.   Take the time to get to know whom the JD holders are at your local campuses.   The degrees held by faculty and senior administrators is usually published in a campus catalog or on the website.  Do the homework necessary to collect this information and then make use of it.  Make appointments to see people for informational interviews, offer to take people to lunch at the faculty club or elsewhere, etc.  As you talk to them, unfold your (well prepared) narrative that explains why you want to make this change and why you would be a good addition to a campus.  Doing all of this will take time, of course, but you are doing this in order to become known and create advocates for yourself. 

If you do this well, some of the people you are meeting with will take an interest in you and refer positions to you when they become available.  Similarly, they may make a telephone call or write a supportive note to the hiring manager for a given vacancy.  As your experience has proven, cold calling/applying your way into a position is rarely effective.  You need to create allies for yourself on one or more campuses.  Again, this can be time consuming; be prepared to invest six to eight months of your time doing this.  Then be prepared for a few more months as your allies go to work on your behalf.  Good luck and feel free to send me private message for more info.

[alleyoxenfree]

All of this presumes you really want to work at a university.

If all you want is to work with college-age students, but be paid reasonably well, you have more options in other industries or private practice of some sort.

[failoutboy]

I have a friend who holds a JD and works for one of the public universities nearby.  She is an assistant provost and makes $220k/year (in this state, salaries of all state employees are a matter of public record and can easily be found online if you know where to look).

An assistant provost can make $220K? I gotta get me one of those jobs!!