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[aandsdean]

But as long as stories like that one continue to circulate, I don't see University of Phoenix as a real threat.

I don't see it as a "real" threat either, but as I mentioned upthread, I've heard administrators at my R1, flagship state university talk about how to grab part of Phoenix's market share.  I don't know why administrators are worried about Phoenix.

Wait, yes I do...it's because they've all drank the Kool Aid about students as customers (like the article Jonesey posted elsewhere this morning) as education is, after all, just a product, with a brand.

It's not so much being worried about Phoenix, as it is thinking about how nice the revenue from a big online program might be.  Online programs are relatively cheap--fairly low infrastructure costs, almost no capital overhead (buildings, etc.)--and are very elastic in terms of capacity.  You don't have to build a new building or so to add 1000 students online.

I don't buy the students-as-customers thing at all (and you should hear our president rant whenever anyone uses the term "customer service"), but $800,000 in new net revenue=a 3% raise for everyone who works here.

[lotsoquestions]

I've encountered a few students lately who don't seem to realize that we're not REQUIRED to pass you at our uni.  I'd be wondering if it was a "Phoenix effect" and whether some of these guys had taken courses elsewhere where they WERE required to pass everyone.  I'm talking about stuff like not showing up for three months and then handing in 10 late essays and just not understanding why "handing papers in" doesn't necessary equal "getting credit back". 

[mad_doctor]

But as long as stories like that one continue to circulate, I don't see University of Phoenix as a real threat.

I don't see it as a "real" threat either, but as I mentioned upthread, I've heard administrators at my R1, flagship state university talk about how to grab part of Phoenix's market share.  I don't know why administrators are worried about Phoenix.

Wait, yes I do...it's because they've all drank the Kool Aid about students as customers (like the article Jonesey posted elsewhere this morning) as education is, after all, just a product, with a brand.

How about UPox?  That works for me.

Re: whether or not UPox is a threat...  they are a threat as long as there are administrators at legitimate universities that admire their freedom, covet their market share, and convince themselves that they can do the same thing at Flagship R1 U. that UPox does, but with their superior, advanced wisdom and experience do it the "right" way.  Other university admins admire the freedom that UPox administrators have to do whatever they want to do without consequences or accountability, and to be honest, what person doesn't secretly wish the same thing for themselves?

[onion]

I've encountered a few students lately who don't seem to realize that we're not REQUIRED to pass you at our uni.  I'd be wondering if it was a "Phoenix effect" and whether some of these guys had taken courses elsewhere where they WERE required to pass everyone.  I'm talking about stuff like not showing up for three months and then handing in 10 late essays and just not understanding why "handing papers in" doesn't necessary equal "getting credit back". 

I will say that when I taught at Phoenix, they have a very strict "attendance" policy (i.e. if you didn't log into the class room for X number of days, you were automatically dropped) and a very strict late assignments policy, which instructors could not amend.  I think these policies may vary across their units, and they may have changed a bit.  But this goes into the "fleecing" that I mentioned: In a f2f situation, or even an online classroom over which the instructor has control of classroom policies, if someone goes into the hospital or loses power for days on end because of a catastrophic weather event, you can work with them.  At Phoenix, "the system" would drop students and they would then have to negotiate with their counselors.

Something else that I've been thinking about:  I can understand the value of online classes, and I think that many universities should offer some--esp. gen ed classes.  But I just don't think you can replicate the experience of college online.  But that might be a different conversation altogether.

[jonesey]

At my FP school we're "encouraged" to not let students drop until after the second week of the quarter; that way we still carry them as "enrolled" (so that the Admissions folks make their numbers) and it's too late for the students to obtain a full refund on their tuition.

[aandsdean]

I've encountered a few students lately who don't seem to realize that we're not REQUIRED to pass you at our uni.  I'd be wondering if it was a "Phoenix effect" and whether some of these guys had taken courses elsewhere where they WERE required to pass everyone.  I'm talking about stuff like not showing up for three months and then handing in 10 late essays and just not understanding why "handing papers in" doesn't necessary equal "getting credit back". 

I will say that when I taught at Phoenix, they have a very strict "attendance" policy (i.e. if you didn't log into the class room for X number of days, you were automatically dropped) and a very strict late assignments policy, which instructors could not amend.  I think these policies may vary across their units, and they may have changed a bit.  But this goes into the "fleecing" that I mentioned: In a f2f situation, or even an online classroom over which the instructor has control of classroom policies, if someone goes into the hospital or loses power for days on end because of a catastrophic weather event, you can work with them.  At Phoenix, "the system" would drop students and they would then have to negotiate with their counselors.

Something else that I've been thinking about:  I can understand the value of online classes, and I think that many universities should offer some--esp. gen ed classes.  But I just don't think you can replicate the experience of college online.  But that might be a different conversation altogether.

Subsequent to this, and to jonesey's following entry, I'm virtually certain this policy has to do with federal financial aid rules.  I'm sure Phoenix is very sensitive to the risks of getting in trouble with the Feds over financial aid, and one of the rules for financial aid refunds, etc., and further eligibility is that "Last day attended" thing that every faculty member ignores when inputting grades into Banner. 

I suspect Phoenix suspects, and I suspect they're right, that the Feds are watching the very very carefully for evidence of financial aid fraud.

[der_gadfly]

Subsequent to this, and to jonesey's following entry, I'm virtually certain this policy has to do with federal financial aid rules.  I'm sure Phoenix is very sensitive to the risks of getting in trouble with the Feds over financial aid, and one of the rules for financial aid refunds, etc., and further eligibility is that "Last day attended" thing that every faculty member ignores when inputting grades into Banner. 

I suspect Phoenix suspects, and I suspect they're right, that the Feds are watching the very very carefully for evidence of financial aid fraud.

Quite right, quite right. It is ok for everyone to go after UoP-and-ilk, but let some bigger R1 go through an audit by the feds and pay huge fines for not keeping records.... JUST once!.... the game will then be over, as will the rhetoric.

[mountainguy]

I think Aandsdean is right that administrators admire UoPhx for their revenue-generating capacities than as a model of "good" higher education. I further agree that there are indeed compelling reasons for expanding online programs (and revenue generation is only one of those reasons).

[untenured]

There are plenty of ways for UP to blow it.  Yet, under aggressive and intelligent management this university can transform itself into a lean and mean teaching machine.  Students learn skills without the frills.  UP only provides courses in areas that are the most lucrative (e.g. professional fields).  Anything they can't charge a huge buck for, they drop.

Think of your institution and how many disciplines are unprofitable, propped up by elaborate 'core' course requirements or university funding.  Now consider the profitability of an instructional institution if all of that academic fat (as UP would perceive it) is stripped away.  Unfortunately, that's a scarily 'effective' university.  The world would be a worse place, but shareholders of UP would smile.

Corporate training is an already lucrative market.  If firms like New Horizons (http://www.newhorizons.com/content/index.aspx) already have a global presence, I don't see what stops UP from following the same.

Administrators perceive well not what UP is now, but what the UP business model can deliver in the future.  For yet another analogy, traditional universities are your ordinary supermarkets.  UP has the potential to be the next Trader Joe's.

This is all speculation, of course, and the usual cautions and disclaimers apply.

Untenured

[namazu]

NPR aired the first of two (?) critical pieces about the University of Phoenix today on its Marketplace segment.  The second part will air on Wednesday (4 November).

Teaser from the website:
"Allegations against U of Phoenix persist
For-profit schools such as the University of Phoenix get most of their revenue from federal student aid. They also face accusations of building enrollments through high-pressure tactics that leave students in deep debt.
Amy Scott reports."

You can listen to it or read a transcript here.

[peppergal]

NPR aired the first of two (?) critical pieces about the University of Phoenix today on its Marketplace segment.  The second part will air on Wednesday (4 November).

Teaser from the website:
"Allegations against U of Phoenix persist
For-profit schools such as the University of Phoenix get most of their revenue from federal student aid. They also face accusations of building enrollments through high-pressure tactics that leave students in deep debt.
Amy Scott reports."

You can listen to it or read a transcript here.

I caught part of this while stuck in traffic this evening.  I tuned in just in time to catch the comparison of UPhx and subprime mortgages (the implication being that student loan practices at UPhx are exactly like subprime mortgages, and are headed for the same meltdown).

[der_gadfly]

NPR aired the first of two (?) critical pieces about the University of Phoenix today on its Marketplace segment.  The second part will air on Wednesday (4 November).

Teaser from the website:
"Allegations against U of Phoenix persist
For-profit schools such as the University of Phoenix get most of their revenue from federal student aid. They also face accusations of building enrollments through high-pressure tactics that leave students in deep debt.
Amy Scott reports."

(snip).

I caught part of this while stuck in traffic this evening.  I tuned in just in time to catch the comparison of UPhx and subprime mortgages (the implication being that student loan practices at UPhx are exactly like subprime mortgages, and are headed for the same meltdown).

Chime to both, conditionally.

While true about the bulk of their (the for-profits, aka FPs) revenue comes to them because of federal aid programs, at the undergrad level, the amount of grants is nowhere near enough to cover fulltime tuition. Therefore, it is the loans (yup, the loans man) that actually make up the bulk of said aid.

The primary difference betweenthe whole subprime mortgage thing and the FPs is that the PhDs in economics who run the federal agencies overseeing mortgage lending and banking "...never saw it coming..." whereas the MBAs running the FPs are quite good at forecasting, and therefore, know when to cut out the shenanigans.

[zoelouise]

Forgive me for being too lazy/afraid of the website to look...

Is U of Phoenix accredited? If so, by whom?

[onion]

Forgive me for being too lazy/afraid of the website to look...

Is U of Phoenix accredited? If so, by whom?

It is.  By the Higher Learning Commission, which is a real accrediting body.

[zoelouise]

Yes, I have actually heard of them!

Do you think that the U of Phoenix accreditation will ever be in jeopardy?