next »

[london1]

Onion, is it a fair guess that you are NOT featured in any of the "I am a Phoenix" ads??!!

[onion]

Onion, is it a fair guess that you are NOT featured in any of the "I am a Phoenix" ads??!!

Yes, and that's precisely why I'm so bitter.  ;D

[wegie]

Oh no.  I hope that UPhoenix and ORT don't team up and come after me.  

Fortunately, I don't think University of Phoenix has operations in the UK, which means they can't benefit from British libel laws. :)

Ahem. Bad news. UOP last year bought the biggest UK provider of private higher education, BPP group.

Their buying BPP actually strikes me as really weird. BPP has been around a long time and has carved out a niche in really top end professional and legal services training and education. If you want to take one of the certificates you need to be able to work in the City, you pay through the nose for a BPP training course. BPP are universally regarded as the best providers of the Bar Vocational Course and and the Legal Practice Course. BPP was the first public company to get permission to offer degrees . . . they are, like UOP, extremely expensive, but they're also quite incredibly good at what they do. I foresee a fairly significant clash of ideologies somewhere down the line.

[shastymcnasty]

I can pursue an online degree from the U of Phoenix and claim that I'm actually going to college.  Similarly, I can "enjoy myself" while viewing online pornography and claim that I'm actually having sex.  Not much difference really.

[wegie]

I can pursue an online degree from the U of Phoenix and claim that I'm actually going to college.  Similarly, I can "enjoy myself" while viewing online pornography and claim that I'm actually having sex.  Not much difference really.

Um, but I don't think that you can get student loans that pay you to do the latter ;-)

Which is my real problem with UOP.

[aandsdean]

I can pursue an online degree from the U of Phoenix and claim that I'm actually going to college.  Similarly, I can "enjoy myself" while viewing online pornography and claim that I'm actually having sex.  Not much difference really.

Um, but I don't think that you can get student loans that pay you to do the latter ;-)

Which is my real problem with UOP.

They are going to get in trouble with the US Department of Education on their graduation and default rates, it's only a matter of time.

Onion's posts have given me a new perspective, however.  My institution (private) has a somewhat large and quite rapidly growing online program.  It costs much less than Phoenix's, and we're an actual university with a very decent reputation.  Moreover, the CC's in our area have online programs at very cheap rates.  There's absolutely no good financial reason to use Phoenix instead of us and the CC's in some combination.

But if you can't read, and can't get into even an open admission real university, I guess Phoenix would be your thing.

It's a terrible thing.  I'm changing my mind about online--our program is actually decent and is treating students right--but the Phoenix deal is a real shame.

[mountainguy]

It's a terrible thing.  I'm changing my mind about online--our program is actually decent and is treating students right--but the Phoenix deal is a real shame.

There are definitely universities out there with high-quality online programs. A friend of mine works for one such school and absolutely loves her job.

As for University of Phoenix, their reputation will suffer if they continue to turn out a lousy product. Personally, I have major philosophical issues with the concept of "for-profit" education in general.

[untenured]

IMHO, traditional universities are partners in a kind of social contract whereby faculty provide student training as well as contribute to the general knowledge of society.  Tuition supports not only instructor creditor hours but thought that promotes the greater good.  The UP model strips the social contract out of the equation.

I would not dismiss UP so easily.  Once universities like them get good at what they do, they will provide a low-cost alternative to traditional education.  Imagine how low-cost a university can be when it is free of pesky problems like research, tenure, faculty governance, and full-time faculty employees.

UP is like Japan in the 1960s, producing crappy cars and cheap little gadgets.  Proud fellow employees of GM, Ford, and Chrysler, dismiss them at your peril.

Untenured

[untenured]

In an effort to be cute, I may have used too blunt of an instrument.  UP won't be taking down Harvard or Princeton anytime soon.

I would venture that, if traditional universities don't respond to the challenge, UP programs will nibble away at a variety of weaker established programs.  Programs that lack the brand equity to attract students in spite of a higher price point will be most vulnerable.

Untenured

[mad_doctor]

I believe you are on the right track, untenured.  I will even go one step futher and assert the dominance of the UP model in the minds of modern university administrators.  I have heard with my own ears many admins speak admiringly of UP.  They want to be like UP, and envy the freedom they perceive UP has that they themselves do not.  Of course, they have all already eaten the forbidden fruit - they acknowledge their disapproval of UP's lack of standards and academic rigor, but they believe that when they themselves set down the UP path that they will be able to avoid UP's "mistakes".  They believe that they will know better than their counterparts at UP, that their superior knowledge of higher ed admin and superior experience as administrators will enable them to do it the "right" way.

[jackofallchem]

I think the sheer bulk of Uof Phoenix is going to make it impossible to ignore.  Its 'graduates' are going to permeate businesses nationwide.  They will be managers and HR directors.  Because they have U of Phoenix degrees, they will either not realize it is a poor education or they will at least be unable to act on it.  They will hire the U. of Phoenix alums and praise the quality education they have.  Anyone who dares suggest that the degrees are substandard will be shouted down as elitist.

How do I know this is what will happen?  It has already happened with the community colleges.  Wait for the flames to roll in from all of the community college people talking about how great their education is and how it is just as good as the same courses offered at Northwestern, Harvard, and Cal Tech.  Because of this, we now allow such classes to transfer.  University of Phoenix will be the next iteration of this cycle.

[profxfiles]

The real problem I see with UP grads is that they do not actually appear motivated to LEARN anything new, just to get a piece of paper to move on. They seem to think the diploma somehow automatically uploads all of the information they need into their brains ala Keanu Reeves in The Matrix without any real effort. We HAD a couple of UP grads in our HR department and they were amazingly clueless. They were gone within a year due to exceedingly poor performance evals.

[mountainguy]

We HAD a couple of UP grads in our HR department and they were amazingly clueless. They were gone within a year due to exceedingly poor performance evals.

A friend of mine in MountainState worked at a high school a few years ago with two teachers who had University of Phoenix degrees. They were both terrible teachers who lasted less than two years in the profession because they simply didn't have the skills necessary to be successful, or even competent, really.

Now of course there's a danger in generalizing from anecdotes. But as long as stories like that one continue to circulate, I don't see University of Phoenix as a real threat.

[jonesey]

We HAD a couple of UP grads in our HR department and they were amazingly clueless. They were gone within a year due to exceedingly poor performance evals.

A friend of mine in MountainState worked at a high school a few years ago with two teachers who had University of Phoenix degrees. They were both terrible teachers who lasted less than two years in the profession because they simply didn't have the skills necessary to be successful, or even competent, really.

Now of course there's a danger in generalizing from anecdotes. But as long as stories like that one continue to circulate, I don't see University of Phoenix as a real threat.

Except that they're offering a PhD in Education now...

Still, I have yet to see a college/university that accepts a UoPhx degree (to me, UoP is the University of the Pacific).  Even the other for profits want academics with traditional doctorates because it gives them "legitimacy."

[onion]

But as long as stories like that one continue to circulate, I don't see University of Phoenix as a real threat.

I don't see it as a "real" threat either, but as I mentioned upthread, I've heard administrators at my R1, flagship state university talk about how to grab part of Phoenix's market share.  I don't know why administrators are worried about Phoenix.

Wait, yes I do...it's because they've all drank the Kool Aid about students as customers (like the article Jonesey posted elsewhere this morning) as education is, after all, just a product, with a brand.