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[macaroon]

<snip>

The problem I had with being a pregnant student, and I've shared this many times on this forum, was that my department tried to terminate my candidacy to "make an example out of me".  Blatant harassment and discrimination.

I've missed the previous tellings of the story, so apologies for retreading, but I have to ask: Did the members of the department who tried to terminate your candidacy have children themselves?

In my observation, the worst offenders in this sort of thing were faculty members who had children themselves--there was sort of a "I did it without any help, so you can do it with extra obstruction" mentality going on. I don't know if this matches what others have experienced, though.

Yep - they did.  But they all had them after they got tenure.  One of them purchased ova.  It's funny - a lot of grad students donated ova as well.  It reminded me of The Handmaid's Tale.

[spectacle]

Brilliant.  Yes, with my SO also in grad school we were pulling in a whopping $25k or so.  Sign me up for kids on that salary, for sure!

[reener06]

why have kids in grad school? so you can hear these gems:

"mommy, why don't we go to movies like other kids?"

"mommy, why don't we have cable? I don't know what the other kids are talking about."

"mommy, why can't we go on vacations to the beach like other families?"

"mommy, I want to buy this book" "great, write down the title and we'll see if the library has it."

or so you can say:

"no honey, we can't buy the name-brand XYZ (of anything)"

"there's no way we're buying a costume at that price. I'll just sew one in my spare time at 3 am"

"why didn't you eat all your lunch? It won't taste as good tomorrow cause it won't be as fresh!"


But then, after reading these fora, I figure even if I get a TT job, I'll be using my money to pay back the loans that kept me living the good life the last five years, so I'll keep hearing and saying these things.

And really, it's not bad to learn to spend wisely. It just builds up some days...

[concordancia]

why have kids in grad school? so you can hear these gems:

"mommy, why don't we go to movies like other kids?"

"mommy, why don't we have cable? I don't know what the other kids are talking about."

"mommy, why can't we go on vacations to the beach like other families?"

"mommy, I want to buy this book" "great, write down the title and we'll see if the library has it."

or so you can say:

"no honey, we can't buy the name-brand XYZ (of anything)"

"there's no way we're buying a costume at that price. I'll just sew one in my spare time at 3 am"

"why didn't you eat all your lunch? It won't taste as good tomorrow cause it won't be as fresh!"


But then, after reading these fora, I figure even if I get a TT job, I'll be using my money to pay back the loans that kept me living the good life the last five years, so I'll keep hearing and saying these things.

And really, it's not bad to learn to spend wisely. It just builds up some days...

As someone who grew up in the kind of family you describe...

[reener06]

why have kids in grad school? so you can hear these gems:

"mommy, why don't we go to movies like other kids?"

"mommy, why don't we have cable? I don't know what the other kids are talking about."

"mommy, why can't we go on vacations to the beach like other families?"

"mommy, I want to buy this book" "great, write down the title and we'll see if the library has it."

or so you can say:

"no honey, we can't buy the name-brand XYZ (of anything)"

"there's no way we're buying a costume at that price. I'll just sew one in my spare time at 3 am"

"why didn't you eat all your lunch? It won't taste as good tomorrow cause it won't be as fresh!"


But then, after reading these fora, I figure even if I get a TT job, I'll be using my money to pay back the loans that kept me living the good life the last five years, so I'll keep hearing and saying these things.

And really, it's not bad to learn to spend wisely. It just builds up some days...

As someone who grew up in the kind of family you describe...

yeah, me too, but there were 7 of us and there's only 1 of her. Like I said, it's not a bad thing; it's actually most of the time a good thing. It just builds up sometimes. She doesn't complain much, and neither do we, but a vacation would be nice...or a car less than 15 years old. With working AC...

[mountainguy]

Some of my colleagues have had children during graduate school and I don't know how they manage to do it. Pepsiopolis is a seriously expensive place to live. It seems like a possibility if one has a working spouse, but even then, it means that both parents are going to need to be ready to have serious conversations about balancing time.

Oh, and it doesn't help to create a positive climate when a senior scholar in my field publishes an essay in a journal attacking other academics for talking too much about their children. If anyone happens to know who I'm talking about, you can tell her that I think she's a frigid b*tch.

[mad_doctor]

Haha... next week:  Why students who party too much don't do as well as their peers who don't.

[inthelab]

[quote author=d_f_b link=topic=64004.msg1407309#msg1407309 date=1256761919

My own experience: At my ridiculously-hugely-endowed graduate institution, grad students were required to have health insurance that covered a lot of things most health insurances didn't--and what a shock, the university had partnered with a specific insurance company to offer such insurance for only about 10% of the average stipend of the time, so we could purchase it from the school. Interestingly, though, this health insurance with all sorts of arcane coverages didn't include coverage for pre-natal care or childbirth--and the average stipend was over 133% of the poverty level for one-person households at the time (which means Medicaid was out), so a single female grad student who found herself pregnant and wished to keep the baby basically had the option of relying on wealthy relatives or bankruptcy. (It also didn't cover prescription medications, so birth control pills were more expensive than they needed to be. It covered abortions, though.)

This sort of institutionalized craziness does not lend itself to people having children in grad school.

[/quote]
This was the case at my grasd school too.  The one woman who had a child while in school had a working spouse (engineer on a big project) and a very wealthy father.

[spectacle]

I also like how she glosses right over mommy-tracking.  Two of my friends in graduate school who got pregnant lost their funding immediately.  One had to fight tooth and nail to get it back (in spite of the fact that she had some of the highest grades in our cohort, several conference presentations and fantastic student evaluations).  The other never got her funding back at all, and was expected to pay the rest of her way through part time. 

Plus there's the indignity of the woman at the end of the article who doesn't feel she can mention the fact that she's married at her MLA interview, much less her child. 

The whole thing just reads as completely clueless, to be honest. 

[macaroon]

I also like how she glosses right over mommy-tracking.  Two of my friends in graduate school who got pregnant lost their funding immediately.

Was this just flat-out discrimination?  The thing that ticked me off so much when they tried to kick me out is that another student in the same lab was allowed more time away from the bench for his girlfriend's gall bladder surgery than I was allowed off for childbirth.  Yet another male student was allowed 10 weeks away from the program (with no negative funding consequences) to go mountain climbing in the Himalayas. 

[temporaryname]

why have kids in grad school? so you can hear these gems:

"mommy, why don't we go to movies like other kids?"

"mommy, why don't we have cable? I don't know what the other kids are talking about."

"mommy, why can't we go on vacations to the beach like other families?"

"mommy, I want to buy this book" "great, write down the title and we'll see if the library has it."

or so you can say:

"no honey, we can't buy the name-brand XYZ (of anything)"

"there's no way we're buying a costume at that price. I'll just sew one in my spare time at 3 am"

"why didn't you eat all your lunch? It won't taste as good tomorrow cause it won't be as fresh!"

But then, after reading these fora, I figure even if I get a TT job, I'll be using my money to pay back the loans that kept me living the good life the last five years, so I'll keep hearing and saying these things.

And really, it's not bad to learn to spend wisely. It just builds up some days...

True recent story: My partner is in the midst of dissertation writing (in a field where PhDs are more usually employed in industry than in academia, so the goal isn't a faculty position), and recently overheard two of our children playing. The one said to the other, "Okay, you sit here and play with these dolls. I'll play over here and write my dissertation."

[reener06]

why have kids in grad school? so you can hear these gems:

"mommy, why don't we go to movies like other kids?"

"mommy, why don't we have cable? I don't know what the other kids are talking about."

"mommy, why can't we go on vacations to the beach like other families?"

"mommy, I want to buy this book" "great, write down the title and we'll see if the library has it."

or so you can say:

"no honey, we can't buy the name-brand XYZ (of anything)"

"there's no way we're buying a costume at that price. I'll just sew one in my spare time at 3 am"

"why didn't you eat all your lunch? It won't taste as good tomorrow cause it won't be as fresh!"

But then, after reading these fora, I figure even if I get a TT job, I'll be using my money to pay back the loans that kept me living the good life the last five years, so I'll keep hearing and saying these things.

And really, it's not bad to learn to spend wisely. It just builds up some days...

True recent story: My partner is in the midst of dissertation writing (in a field where PhDs are more usually employed in industry than in academia, so the goal isn't a faculty position), and recently overheard two of our children playing. The one said to the other, "Okay, you sit here and play with these dolls. I'll play over here and write my dissertation."

Very funny--thanks for the laugh.

[scampster]

I also like how she glosses right over mommy-tracking.  Two of my friends in graduate school who got pregnant lost their funding immediately.

Was this just flat-out discrimination?  The thing that ticked me off so much when they tried to kick me out is that another student in the same lab was allowed more time away from the bench for his girlfriend's gall bladder surgery than I was allowed off for childbirth.  Yet another male student was allowed 10 weeks away from the program (with no negative funding consequences) to go mountain climbing in the Himalayas. 

I'm curious macaroon if you think this is a generational thing? I have no children (and no biological clock that thinks I should), but I can't imagine ever treating a pregnant graduate student that way. Do you sense that your peers would throw a pregnant grad student under the bus in the same manner?

[macaroon]

I also like how she glosses right over mommy-tracking.  Two of my friends in graduate school who got pregnant lost their funding immediately.

Was this just flat-out discrimination?  The thing that ticked me off so much when they tried to kick me out is that another student in the same lab was allowed more time away from the bench for his girlfriend's gall bladder surgery than I was allowed off for childbirth.  Yet another male student was allowed 10 weeks away from the program (with no negative funding consequences) to go mountain climbing in the Himalayas. 

I'm curious macaroon if you think this is a generational thing? I have no children (and no biological clock that thinks I should), but I can't imagine ever treating a pregnant graduate student that way. Do you sense that your peers would throw a pregnant grad student under the bus in the same manner?

I don't know.  I've run into plenty of young scientists who are sold on the idea that they won't have kids because of their dedication towards their research.  (IMO, really, they just don't want kids and are trying to make some lame justification for that.)  Ergo, anyone who does have children is less deserving of any positive career outcomes.  Yes, I think they'd throw a pregnant student under the bus. 

I don't know how common it is.  I've heard this tired story from young people, but I'm also aware that people who felt this way might not necessarily tell me.

[scampster]

I also like how she glosses right over mommy-tracking.  Two of my friends in graduate school who got pregnant lost their funding immediately.

Was this just flat-out discrimination?  The thing that ticked me off so much when they tried to kick me out is that another student in the same lab was allowed more time away from the bench for his girlfriend's gall bladder surgery than I was allowed off for childbirth.  Yet another male student was allowed 10 weeks away from the program (with no negative funding consequences) to go mountain climbing in the Himalayas. 

I'm curious macaroon if you think this is a generational thing? I have no children (and no biological clock that thinks I should), but I can't imagine ever treating a pregnant graduate student that way. Do you sense that your peers would throw a pregnant grad student under the bus in the same manner?

I don't know.  I've run into plenty of young scientists who are sold on the idea that they won't have kids because of their dedication towards their research.  (IMO, really, they just don't want kids and are trying to make some lame justification for that.)  Ergo, anyone who does have children is less deserving of any positive career outcomes.  Yes, I think they'd throw a pregnant student under the bus. 

I don't know how common it is.  I've heard this tired story from young people, but I'm also aware that people who felt this way might not necessarily tell me.

I always figure that every one person who is willing to state a position like that, there are two more who think it but won't say it out loud in your presence. I guess the best that can be hoped for is that the percentage of scientists who hold such views decreases with time, even if it is a slow process.