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[thundering_m]

Second Lizzy

[ghillbilly]

More than that, in my graduate program, I have been able to forge both personal and professional relationships with my fellow students. These fellow students will one day become my work colleagues. We know each others' work. We collaborate. We are building a network. An online degree doesn't offer that.

Because I'm in an actual university, I'm also more closely plugged in to conference and publication possibilities. I can't count the number of times I've run into someone in the hall, and we've come up with something - some conference that we'll carpool to, or some panel that we'll put together, or some lecture that someone wants me to give on this or that.

So let me get this straight.  You feel that you can't collaborate with others online?  Can't forge personal and professional relationships with collegues through your computer or on the phone?  Can't build a network or get "plugged in" to others in your field long distance? 

Well, you better send a memo to the 85 million Millennial's out there and tell them to stop all the technology nonsense.  They need to know that the way they communicate, build relationships, and network just isn't gonna cut it in your world.  They need to give up the I-pods, cell phones, email, social networking, Skype, and the countless other ways they have chose to communicate.  You need to sound the alarm that they only thought they could extend their community to the entire world through technology.  Don't forget to tell them that carpooling is the wave of the future with regards to getting linked-in to the "real world".

You keep being you grasshopper...I'll wave at you from the online train as we speed by.

[voxprincipalis]

So let me get this straight.  You feel that you can't collaborate with others online?  Can't forge personal and professional relationships with collegues through your computer or on the phone?  Can't build a network or get "plugged in" to others in your field long distance? 

Well, you better send a memo to the 85 million Millennial's out there and tell them to stop all the technology nonsense.  They need to know that the way they communicate, build relationships, and network just isn't gonna cut it in your world.  They need to give up the I-pods, cell phones, email, social networking, Skype, and the countless other ways they have chose to communicate.  You need to sound the alarm that they only thought they could extend their community to the entire world through technology.  Don't forget to tell them that carpooling is the wave of the future with regards to getting linked-in to the "real world".

You keep being you grasshopper...I'll wave at you from the online train as we speed by.

1. "Colleagues," not "collegues."

2. "Millenials" — no apostrophe before the "s."

3. "iPod," not "Ipod."

4. "Chosen," not "chose."

5. Periods go inside quotation marks, not outside them.

6. You need a comma after the second "you" in your last sentence.

7. Based on 1-6 above: yes, this kind of communication is not going to cut it in my world. Sloppy writing equals sloppy thinking. Ease of communication has nothing to do with the quality of that communication. Apparently your twenty years in the corporate world did not teach you this lesson.

8. You think you are getting sufficient mentoring and interaction from your online program because that is all you see. You are unaware of how things work in non-online programs, and so you have nothing to compare it to. Those of us who are in the profession are just slightly more informed than you about this issue, so even if you don't agree with what others are telling you, you might consider saying to yourself, "Huh. Because these people actually work in the profession, perhaps they know something about it that I don't, and although my perspective makes sense to me, maybe there is something else that I am missing that I should find out."

9. The PhD in Human Resource Management is not really an academic research degree, is it? It's a degree with a research component that's designed for most people to use outside of academia. I quote from the Capella description:

"Explore and challenge the latest thinking of expert human resource theorists while conducting your own doctoral research to advance the field of human resources. This Human Resource Management PhD specialization is designed to prepare you to lead, consult, or teach in the field of human resources within a complex and global business environment. You will explore and create practical solutions to real-world problems, and prepare yourself to think beyond traditional business boundaries to become a strategic business partner in leading and managing your organization's human assets. Capella's curriculum is mapped to the competencies identified by the Society for Human Resource Management (SHRM®). People who choose this specialization are often pursuing leadership, consulting, or faculty positions in the field of human resources and employee development."

Perhaps, therefore, you ought not to compare it with research doctorates in academic areas.

VP

[thundering_m]

Second VP.

[toni52]

I think that it would probably be very difficult for someone with an online PhD to find a faculty position (in most fields).  This is because the perceived caliber of the candidate's qualifications is arguably the most important aspect in the hiring decision (as a way of assessing "fit").  And this determination is usually based on factors such as the quality of the doctoral program from which you receive your PhD, the quality of your research, as well as the caliber of your connections within your field, among other factors.  Since online PhD programs are perceived as low-caliber by many academics, I doubt that someone with an online PhD would be successful in landing an academic job.

I will say that in some fields (particularly those that are technology-related), there do seem to be new developments underway.  In my field, many faculty research topics like instructional technology, for example.  And so, in these programs faculty have been piloting online course delivery systems and offering graduate coursework online (and conducting scholarly research on these efforts).  I suspect that with continuing advances in technology we may see perceptions of online PhD programs begin to change--as well-regarded higher education institutions start to come on board.

However, I have yet to see any such program offer an online PhD.   And even in these fields, faculty hiring practices mirror typical hiring practices.  

[madhatter]

I think that it would probably be very difficult for someone with an online PhD to find a faculty position (in most fields).  This is because the perceived caliber of the candidate's qualifications is arguably the most important aspect in the hiring decision (as a way of assessing "fit").  And this determination is usually based on factors such as the quality of the doctoral program from which you receive your PhD, the quality of your research, as well as the caliber of your connections within your field, among other factors.  Since online PhD programs are perceived as low-caliber by many academics, I doubt that someone with an online PhD would be successful in landing an academic job.

I will say that in some fields (particularly those that are technology-related), there do seem to be new developments underway.  In my field, many faculty research topics like instructional technology, for example.  And so, in these programs faculty have been piloting online course delivery systems and offering graduate coursework online (and conducting scholarly research on these efforts).  I suspect that with continuing advances in technology we may see perceptions of online PhD programs begin to change--as well-regarded higher education institutions start to come on board.

However, I have yet to see any such program offer an online PhD.   And even in these fields, faculty hiring practices mirror typical hiring practices.  

I would definitely concur with this. It's an accurate description of the current state of affairs. Like some others, I would not be surprised to see this change, several years from now. Just as buying books from amazon or doing online dating were viewed as weird, deficient substitutes for the real thing 15 years ago, I expect that the current experimentation in online learning will eventually lead to greater quality and acceptability of online degrees. Even at the doctoral level, for some fields. However, we aren't there yet, and arguing about it until you are blue in the face will not perceptibly move that needle.

[grasshopper]

More than that, in my graduate program, I have been able to forge both personal and professional relationships with my fellow students. These fellow students will one day become my work colleagues. We know each others' work. We collaborate. We are building a network. An online degree doesn't offer that.

Because I'm in an actual university, I'm also more closely plugged in to conference and publication possibilities. I can't count the number of times I've run into someone in the hall, and we've come up with something - some conference that we'll carpool to, or some panel that we'll put together, or some lecture that someone wants me to give on this or that.

So let me get this straight.  You feel that you can't collaborate with others online?  Can't forge personal and professional relationships with collegues through your computer or on the phone?  Can't build a network or get "plugged in" to others in your field long distance? 

Whoa, there, horsey. Of course I can build relationships online. And those that I have built online have often proven quite fruitful. But (and here's the kicker), I can also build them in person.

Also, don't forget the importance of a good push-up bra. It's not like I can email those pictures. It would be entirely unprofessional. But a nice sweater set at the national conference? Can work miracles, let me tell you. How do you think I got this job? But you can only sexy your way up the ladder if you're meeting people in person. Doing it online risks overt vulgarity.

It's a delicate balance, really.

[cc_alan]

You keep being you grasshopper...I'll wave at you from the online train as we speed by.

That would be tough to do while texting. Shoot, you won't even see Grassy. And if the train is really, really smooth, it might just look like Grassy is passing you from your point-of-view.

Alan

[magistra]

Beware the "Millennials are sooo plugged in!"  Not true.  Many of them have no interest in online education and a lot of what goes with it.  I think the road to full e-learning is going to be a lot windier, bumpier, and longer than some think.

I'd also add that having constant contact with an advisor or mentor in person is not easily replaced.  The casual conversations in the hallway (or frank conversations which aren't being recorded) can't be replicated.  They can't drop in to see you teach before writing a rec letter.  And then there's the fact that they model behaviors for you in ways you don't even realize -- not just with you, but with others.  I'd say that it's in part the kind of contact, but more the amount of contact and kinds of contact.  Having someone in the same department and interacting with them in many roles is different from skyping.

[bread_pirate_naan]

You do realize that graduate students from on-line universities have mentors right?  Mine called me this morning...she lives in California and teaches at UCLA, but I'm pretty sure the distance won't stop her from introducing me to the "big shots" or passing on her "wisdom".  Also, my professors give me feedback on my writing just like yours. 

Is your advisor an adjunct or lecturer at UCLA?  I'm guessing yes.

As far as getting experience getting up in front of people and speaking?  I've been in the corporate world for 20 years...don't need any help there.

How do you think that experience is informing your reception in this academic context?  Do you think your approach is well received?

You feel that you can't collaborate with others online?  Can't forge personal and professional relationships with collegues through your computer or on the phone?  Can't build a network or get "plugged in" to others in your field long distance?

This happens in person first(forging, not maintenance), much as Grassy described.  Digital media is the cart, person-to-person relationships are the horse.  When you put the cart before the horse, you are more invested in technological resources rather than human.  The deterioration of the ability to interface with human resources may be indicated by a preference for the distance that technology affords, rather than closing the distance between people.

In a person to person environment, reputations are made and broken.  In my own program this techno-centered approach was vividly rejected when someone sought to consolidate power and only interact via email.  Selectively and dishonestly at that. Unfortunately that person's poor social skills and relations placed them on the margins of the network.  People talk, they do, and the lies and manipulation came out.  To say nothing of the tighter community that was forged in the wake of an ambitious, foolish person's poor understanding of human interactions and social networks.

In all sorts of circumstances depending on the digital will leave one out in the cold.  That's just the way it is.  It's a convenient supplement, an excellent accoutrement to existing relationships, not the preferred point of origin.

You keep being you grasshopper...I'll wave at you from the online train as we speed by.

She keeps on passing me by...

[polly_mer]

More than that, in my graduate program, I have been able to forge both personal and professional relationships with my fellow students. These fellow students will one day become my work colleagues. We know each others' work. We collaborate. We are building a network. An online degree doesn't offer that.

Because I'm in an actual university, I'm also more closely plugged in to conference and publication possibilities. I can't count the number of times I've run into someone in the hall, and we've come up with something - some conference that we'll carpool to, or some panel that we'll put together, or some lecture that someone wants me to give on this or that.

So let me get this straight.  You feel that you can't collaborate with others online?  Can't forge personal and professional relationships with collegues through your computer or on the phone?  Can't build a network or get "plugged in" to others in your field long distance? 

Yes, of course, I can do that online.  However, and here's the kicker, you still have to put a lot of effort into doing so with serendipity playing a large role, just as it does in face-to-face interactions.  If the big (or even medium) names in your field aren't going electronic yet, then you are, indeed, missing a primary component of your education--just as you would be at a small school that has only one mentor in your program.

I have acquired mentors and colleagues here on these fora, as have many of the others mentioning that online education is not yet a good idea.  Considering what I know of Grasshopper, she certainly cannot be anti-technology or anti-virtual-interactions.  None of the VDSMs or DSMs can be.  We are here as part of this community with strong personal and professional ties made online. 

The thing about the majority of the current online degree programs programs is that they are lacking that community because they have a handful of students and a couple of mentors.  They do not have a large number of people in the field.  They cannot offer the same types of interactions spanning the range from undergrads, grads, post-docs, lecturers, professors, and visitors of all stripes.  That depth just isn't there yet for most fields.  In fact,  for many fields, online-only degrees are unlikely to get that point because of the equipment needs and daily interactions necessary to have a useful graduate experience. 

Even in my computational world where I do have collaborators whom I have never met face-to-face even though we have corresponded for years, the education itself does need to be someone sitting down at the white board or with paper to map out the details.  While we do phone conferences all the time and video conferencing is becoming reasonable to do, those planned interactions and the occasional email are wonderful complements and supplements to being in a group, walking over to whomever happens to be around at midnight on a holiday, and saying, "I am missing something here, do you have a couple minutes to check my code/work through the math/bounce some ideas off of each other?"

I love on-line, but it is not a replacement for being side-by-side hammering out a problem on the same keyboard or sheet of paper.   

[scienceprof]

Back to why so few doctoral students have children: In the original Chronicle article, Anna, who did have a child while working on her PhD, stated that she worked 40-50 hours a week on her PhD.  Isn't that incredibly low?  Between time in the lab and time teaching undergrad labs, I spent more like 60-80 hours per week, and that was after I finished coursework.  I think I was fairly typical for my cohort. That's also actual time at the university, in the labs, not what I did after I got home. I went to a good, but not, I think, unusually demanding school (R1).  Am I wrong about average workload during PhD?  

Never mind having a kid (because there is a lot of debate about maternity leave), how are you supposed to actually raise the kid?

[inthelab]

I think 60 hours is about right, and does not include reading the lit.  I worked 6 days/week in lab, usually 10 hrs/day, then went home and read another 4- 6 hours of current lit most days.

[macaroon]

Never mind having a kid (because there is a lot of debate about maternity leave), how are you supposed to actually raise the kid?

AAAAAAAARRRGH!

This was the logic used by the folks who wanted to just plain kick me out of grad school when I got pregnant.  Why bother putting my committee through the trouble of my defense and reading my dissertation, since I couldn't possibly be a scientist and a parent.  According to the profs in my department, there was just no point in me getting a PhD.

Well, to hell with all of them.  I'm the first in my cohort to have a tenure-track position, and I have my own damn PhD students now, my very own high-impact papers, and my own damn grant money.  And another kid.  My childless postdoctoral advisor and I used to occasionally joke about how we actually did put in the same amount of work.  I'd leave at 5, play with the kids, have a nutritious dinner and another cup of coffee, and then I'd be back to work at 9 on my computer.  And I'd be productive after my ~ 4 hour "family break".  She'd get home at 8:30, scrounge around for anything she could find in the kitchen, and would run out of energy while eating her microwave meal or bowl of cereal.   I took the weekends mostly off, but I never burned out.

[polly_mer]

Never mind having a kid (because there is a lot of debate about maternity leave), how are you supposed to actually raise the kid?

AAAAAAAARRRGH!

This was the logic used by the folks who wanted to just plain kick me out of grad school when I got pregnant.  Why bother putting my committee through the trouble of my defense and reading my dissertation, since I couldn't possibly be a scientist and a parent.  According to the profs in my department, there was just no point in me getting a PhD.

Well, to hell with all of them.  I'm the first in my cohort to have a tenure-track position, and I have my own damn PhD students now, my very own high-impact papers, and my own damn grant money.  And another kid.  My childless postdoctoral advisor and I used to occasionally joke about how we actually did put in the same amount of work.  I'd leave at 5, play with the kids, have a nutritious dinner and another cup of coffee, and then I'd be back to work at 9 on my computer.  And I'd be productive after my ~ 4 hour "family break".  She'd get home at 8:30, scrounge around for anything she could find in the kitchen, and would run out of energy while eating her microwave meal or bowl of cereal.   I took the weekends mostly off, but I never burned out.

OK, Macaroon, ok.  We all believe you are productive and have the support necessary to do so.  In fact, I think more people should have kids earlier so that they learn how to prioritize and insist that all adults in the family pull their own weight.

On the other hand, there is some logic to wondering how people are going to divvy up their limited time and energy.  People who are barely scraping by when all they have to do is work on their dissertation research are going to be in a world of hurt when other responsibilities intrude.  People who were only working at 75% capacity without optimizing for efficiency can reorganize and be fine.  People who are comfortable delegating responsibility and don't hew to the parenting as an extreme sport notion are likely to be fine.  People who are working at 95% capacity with everything already optimized cannot take on other responsibilities without displacing some activities and if they are also people who refuse to delegate, then life is very rough all around.


Some people are acceptably productive with outside lives and some people aren't.  Without knowing into what category any particular person falls, it is foolish to make generalized statements.