bhusach
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« on: October 25, 2009, 03:40:32 PM » |
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Hi everyone,
As I mentioned in another post, I've been in a tenure track position at an R-2 for 3 years and I'm currently on the job market. I have been invited to a couple of R-1 campuses to interview.
Sometime ago, several senior colleagues, the department head, and the Dean at my current institution strongly encouraged me to go up for early tenure (all of them promised full support), which I politely declined.
My questions are:
1. Should I tell my prospective employers about the tenure offer? If yes,
2. Should I do so only if the opportunity arises or should I try to inform them anyway.
3. What would be a diplomatic way of informing them without boasting about it or appearing snobbish?
Thank you very much for your guidance.
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americanist
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« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2009, 03:49:15 PM » |
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You might tell them about your tenure offer (1) if it were going to have an impact on your candidacy, and (2) if you actually had a tenure offer. But it sounds as if you do not have a tenure offer; you have encouragement to apply for tenure, which is a very different thing.
So, no.
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onion
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« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2009, 03:55:06 PM » |
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I was in a similar boat last year, and the only way I brought it up at my interviews was when I inquired about tenure requirements and the possibility (and wisdom) of negotiating time off the tenure clock at the R-1. Other than that, it wasn't something that was going to give me any leverage at the R-1 (because although I had fulfilled the requirements for tenure at my R-2, I certainly wouldn't be ready for tenure at an R-1 after only 3 years on the track. Of course, you may be in a very different position.)
Good luck!
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shrek
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« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2009, 04:02:36 PM » |
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You need to know what the tenure requirements are at the R1 first. IF your credentials meet the R1 requirements then I suppose it could be mentioned (I wouldn't either way, but if you must). If you don't meet the requirements then you'll just look foolish.
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mended_drum
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« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2009, 04:04:38 PM » |
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No. It's not really relevant if you chose not to go up.
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bhusach
New member
Posts: 37
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« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2009, 04:07:36 PM » |
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Thank you for your insightful suggestions. I agree with both of you completely.
Americanist: You're absolutely right. Although I've never heard of anybody being denied tenure at my current institution once the Dean supports it (there are 3 other stages to clear before that stage), technically I do not have an offer for tenure yet.
Onion: Its great that you were in the same boat. Although I do not know the tenure requirements at the prospective institutions for sure (I'll hopefully come to know of this during the campus visits), I strongly suspect that my record is enough for tenure at those places as well.
Other insights/experiences/perspectives are welcome.
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bhusach
New member
Posts: 37
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« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2009, 04:08:42 PM » |
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I wrote the above response before reading Shrek's and mended_drum's views. Thanks to both of you for sharing your insights.
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onion
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« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2009, 04:25:37 PM » |
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Thank you for your insightful suggestions. I agree with both of you completely.
Americanist: You're absolutely right. Although I've never heard of anybody being denied tenure at my current institution once the Dean supports it (there are 3 other stages to clear before that stage), technically I do not have an offer for tenure yet.
Onion: Its great that you were in the same boat. Although I do not know the tenure requirements at the prospective institutions for sure (I'll hopefully come to know of this during the campus visits), I strongly suspect that my record is enough for tenure at those places as well.
Other insights/experiences/perspectives are welcome.
I think what you have, then, is a good case for negotiating time off the tenure clock. At your campus visits, ask if their institution permits it, and how much they'd be willing to offer. I received varying responses--some places would only take 1 year off the clock (I'd done 5 at my previous institution), whereas others were willing to let me do one year on their clock, then go up for tenure. The argument always was that although I was close to the research requirements, they wanted me to build a teaching and service record on their campus before they could/would consider a tenure bid. Again, this might be different for you if you're in a less teaching-focused field. Good luck! |
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the_honey_badger
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« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2009, 04:29:53 PM » |
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Onion's reply is pretty good. One essential point of hers can't be overstated---an R1 doesn't much care what it takes/took for tenure at an R2. Often they aren't that interested in the standards at another R1. Whether the paper-based list of standards is the same or not (say: a monograph in print or press and another underway) they will always believe that their quality standards are higher.
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_____________________________________
"Honey badger don't care."
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bhusach
New member
Posts: 37
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« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2009, 05:48:45 PM » |
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These are great suggestions. Keep 'em coming.
Thanks!
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seniorscholar
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« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2009, 09:06:19 AM » |
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As others have suggested -- and you have agreed -- what you have is a long way short of a "tenure offer"; it's a suggestion that you apply for early tenure. If I were on the search committee at my R-1, I would probably "hear" that you're asking if you can come in with tenure here (if it's been "offered" where you are), and would probably think you have unreal expectations about your value to our department.
For the record, we can hire people with tenure only if they are already tenured at a comparable institution and if we have advertised the position as "open rank" or "associate/full" -- thus we would, at best, offer a candidate for an assistant professor position who is already tenured (not thinking about applying for tenure early) at a "lesser institution" (note belowtheradar's definition) the opportunity to go up for tenure in their second year here if their already-published book was pretty impressive. Anyone who appeared to be asking for something more than that would look very naive.
Remember that if we're interviewing 12 people at a conference or by phone before making the shortlist for campus invitations, we may well not be listening carefully to every work said by every candidate, and misunderstanding what you say would be easy.
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joelp
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« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2009, 10:14:32 AM » |
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I don't know about your field, but in my field the advice generally given is "don't negotiate anything until the offer has been made."
I say that because some here have mentioned talking about it during a campus visit. While no one outside the SC would ever know if that sort of negotiation hurt your chances, at least in my field the consensus is that you want to avoid anything that might be counted negatively.The negotiation of non-standard items (spousal hires, tenure clock, visa, course releases) before they've made a commitment to you might hurt you if they thing the chances of you getting what you want are not 100%.
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oatmeal
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« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2009, 03:48:34 PM » |
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I agree with most of the statements here. You do not have an offer of tenure, so you cannot say that you have. Your current colleagues opinion may change and others in the department or university may disagree with what they say and as yet there is no formal vote, so you have no offer of tenure. I would be careful about bringing this issue up at an interview, because it will raise a huge red flag. Now, it is different if you receive an offer. Then you can negotiate for time towards tenure. But that is a whole new set of questions and there is a lot of debate on how to do this. I seriously doubt that a R1 will offer you tenure after three years at a R-2; unless you are stellar and have major publications, grants and awards, and even then it might not happen, for the reasons mentioned by some of the other posters on this thread. Again, I would advise you, as does Joelp to not mention anything until if and when you receive a formal offer. Good luck with your search!
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bhusach
New member
Posts: 37
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« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2009, 01:42:57 PM » |
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Thank you for the additional input. I truely appreciate all the advice and guidance.
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offthemarket
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« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2009, 05:08:04 PM » |
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I don't see it as relevant. You don't have tenure. You weren't even offered tenure. It was suggested that you apply for it early. Perhaps at your institution, support of the chair and department and Dean is what it takes, but at my university, there is a university-level committee that will have its own opinions on early tenure.
The folks at your institution thought you should come up for tenure, but you chose not to.
I'm assuming that you are not coming up early because it would make your switch to an R1 institution easier as an Assistant without tenure. Perhaps your own institution knows this, and this was their bid to keep you rather than see you go.
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