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Author Topic: What to do, what to do  (Read 18077 times)
scampster
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« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2009, 12:33:36 PM »

I will have to say no to the lifting.  But what do you do when there is a human being who needs help and you are the only one available? 


What about her sister?

I know nothing about healthcare laws, but I am also very skeptical about this housemate rule. Both my last roommates were complete strangers to me when I moved in - with no legal connection between us, I don't see how I could be responsible for taking care of them. I guess I could see some sort of rule that seeks to punish unmarried couples who try to get an aide if one gets injured. But the whole idea seems absurd (although I should know by now that there are a lot of ridiculous rules regarding health care eligibility).

From the perspective of being friends with my roommates, I would help them out as much as I can, but I wouldn't endanger my own health to do so (and if they were my friends they wouldn't expect me to).

Don't let your guilt about having needed others in the past overwhelm your responsibility to yourself. Did any of the people who helped you in the past put themselves in the position of risking permanent disability to help you? Money comes and goes (and maybe some of them made monetary sacrifices for you), but you only get one body and if you mess it up permanently, you will be returning to the position of needing others to help you constantly.
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sikora
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« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2009, 12:37:55 PM »

Why am I finding this so hard? 
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marigolds
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« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2009, 01:32:45 PM »

Because you're nice.

I wouldn't go so far as t_r_b on the borderline personality awful manipulator route, but it does sound like she's perfectly happy to inconvenience you.  Has she really looked into the home health care laws? 

It does seem that the most practical thing to do would be to have your doctor tell you to have your surgery ASAP, so that you will BOTH need an aide and can potentially share one.  This will let you off the hook - how can you serve as her aide when you're debilitated yourself?

Or you could generously offer to move out so as not to keep her from getting the health aide that she so desperately needs. ;) 

Seriously, it's unfair of her to assume that you'll just do it - it's one thing if she were your partner, or a family member, but to take over the life of a roommate in that way for that long, especially one with precarious health herself?  Not cool. 
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see_wolf
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« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2009, 01:57:44 PM »

I had ankle reconstruction - granted, it wasn't fusion - but I was non-weight bearing for 6 weeks.  I can tell you, I never needed help toileting (or would I even ask!).  I also could stand and bathe without assistance (there is still the OTHER leg).  And I got around on crutches well enough to take care of my personal needs. 

I did need help with cleaning, laundry, some cooking (I made a lot of sandwiches those days), etc.  But I only stayed with friends for the first few days, then headed home to my apartment.  Friends came in a couple times a week to help with chores.  I was even back to work after a week.

I guess what I'm saying is... is your housemate really that helpless that she relies on your assistance for personal moving?  I echo what others have said as well - a housemate does not disquailfy an home aide... something sounds fishy there.
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msparticularity
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« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2009, 07:34:44 PM »


I wouldn't go so far as t_r_b on the borderline personality awful manipulator route, but it does sound like she's perfectly happy to inconvenience you.  Has she really looked into the home health care laws? 


I actually wonder if what is happening here has to do with our insane healthcare system, and with definitions. I'll bet almost anything that the question that came up in evaluating her for home health assistance was whether there was anyone else "in the household." If she defined/considered you in this way, the little checkboxes do not differentiate between spouse/family member and roommate. I really think, though, that if she clearly specifies that you are her "tenant" and also happen to live at the same address that the answer will be different.

And possibly the problem here is that both of you are having difficulty advocating for yourselves. :)
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sikora
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« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2009, 10:17:59 PM »


I wouldn't go so far as t_r_b on the borderline personality awful manipulator route, but it does sound like she's perfectly happy to inconvenience you.  Has she really looked into the home health care laws? 


I actually wonder if what is happening here has to do with our insane healthcare system, and with definitions. I'll bet almost anything that the question that came up in evaluating her for home health assistance was whether there was anyone else "in the household." If she defined/considered you in this way, the little checkboxes do not differentiate between spouse/family member and roommate. I really think, though, that if she clearly specifies that you are her "tenant" and also happen to live at the same address that the answer will be different.

And possibly the problem here is that both of you are having difficulty advocating for yourselves. :)

In order for her to restructure her mortgage she has to list me as a tenant/housemate, given that there isn't a separate apartment.  If one of us were to seek foodstamps or general assistance, even though we do not have a legal/family/domestic partnership arrangement, both our incomes would have to be counted.  Even without a legal or family relationship, given the tenant situation and the layout of the house, we are a household.  Basically, it's because we share a kitchen.

We talked a little more today.  She had carpal tunnel surgery Oct 1, and is still having trouble with pain and numbness, and she said she can't deal with it too much longer.  I asked her what the next move was for her wrist.  Her answer: more surgery.   I told her that I had considerable discomfort folding laundry today, especially sheets and blankets, and she suggested I fold my clothes by laying them out on the floor.  Blankets and sheets especially.

Meanwhile, we have a nice evening together.  I made quinoa pilaf and steamed broccoli and resisted getting up to feed her dog.  Roommate did the Frankenstein walk to her dog's food bin, to the kitchen sink, placed the food bowl on the floor, and back again to the couch. I had to consciously make myself not offer to do it myself. If I start offering, it will soon be my responsibility to feed her dog as well as mine (mine eats upstairs). I did let them both dogs in and out this evening,  though.

It's confusing.  I was raised to give as much care to everyone as I could to everyone, and not to ask for anything. And I don't live a really secure life.  I'm not anxious to move again, and if I do, I will leave roommate with a big financial problem - she's close to losing her house, and my rent is more than half her mortgage.  I know it's not my problem, but then moving is so disruptive to me as well.

We'll just see how it goes.  My Army experience is not helping, because in the Army to work through pain even when it means long term damage is both honorable and required.  Esp. for women.  It's hard to let that go.
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wet_blanket
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« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2009, 11:30:15 PM »

Maybe I'm a cynic, but this seems a bit too perfect to me:

I just moved in a couple of months ago...
The way home health care works, my presence means she can't get an aide.

You've mentioned elsewhere on the fora you recently trained as a carer, yes?  Did she know this when you moved in?  Did she know she'd need surgery and an aid when you moved in?

And then there's this:

... my rent is more than half her mortgage...

I can't think of an explanation other than your roomate is manipulating and taking advantage of you.  Which is bad enough at any time, but you are considering jeopardising your health, potentially longterm, because of it.



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macaroon
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« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2009, 11:35:33 PM »

Regarding your surgery, that's something for you and your doctor to decide, and not really something your housemate should be involved in.  She can't make an informed decision about it, neither having an ailing shoulder nor medical training.  But I can understand where she is coming from in voicing a preference for you to have your surgery in the Spring.  She's probably pretty scared right now herself.

Okay  - I've got a trick about people who try to use "pain" to manipulate others.  Maybe it will work for you?

When she talks / screams about being in a lot of pain, you suggest she talk to her doctor about more effective pain relief.  You offer to call for her.  You say that if she's in this much pain, she should go to the doctor because it means something isn't right.... but she doesn't want to be all knocked out! Or take a lot of pills!  Your answer, "No, honey.  If you're feeling this bad, you can't get the rest you need.  You need rest to heal".  You don't really fight with her about it, you just calmly repeat, "You need better pain management to get the rest.  You need rest to get well."  and "I'll help.  I'll call your doctor and tell her how hard a time you are having."

Actually, you should suggest right now that she discuss pain management with her doctor.  
If she's really in that much pain, she'll jump at your offer to help her get better meds.  If she's trying to manipulate you, you make it not stick by being a broken record about the pain pills.
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mdwlark
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« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2009, 01:13:04 AM »

Sikora, don't assume the worst about your room mate but also don't let yourself get used, either deliberately or unintentionally.  I don't think an insurance company can obligate a tenant to care for a disabled landlord/lady, but I'm sure when both of you are disabled there is no question that they should cover it.  Come home from your doctor's appointment, shaking your head, saying, "My doctor says I need surgery right away, let's contact your insurance about getting you a home health aide when the other house member is also disabled."  That is why we have insurance, to get us care when we are disabled.  Disability regulations are interpreted differently from state to state, even though the program is federally financed.  I think in many if not most states you would be treated as two separate households for disability payments or SSI, and for food stamps you would be treated as one household if you share food, two separate households if you keep your food separate.  I know, its silly. Don't assume you know the regulations, and don't assume the person on the phone is interpreting them right.  Two insurance adjusters will settle a claim very differently.  For insurance claim purposes, refer to yourself as a tenant, and make sure your room mate does too.  If it is her house, and you pay rent, you are a tenant. 
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t_r_b
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« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2009, 03:30:41 AM »

I'm actually more confused than ever, because I consider this woman my friend.

Friendship is a tricky thing. Here's a relevant anecdote:

Most of the residents of my building are retirees. When I moved in here last year, two of them in particular were always sitting in the little lounge area next to the entrance, chatting continually with each other and with anyone who entered or left the building. One of them is very sweet and cheerful and friendly, always a nice thing to say about everyone (she is a retired health care worker, I believe). The other is moodier, rather self-righteous and defensive, and passive-aggressive: lots of backhanded compliments and subtle digs. But they were, to anyone's eyes, good buddies who enjoyed each other's company. The sweet one did the mean one's laundry, while the mean one was almost always there for the sweet one to talk to (the sweet one only recently moved to town and doesn't know many people here).

Fast forward a year. They now sit by the entrance only rarely, and never together. It turns out that the sweet one got tired of the mean one's subtle but biting verbal abuse and started hanging out with a couple of new friends. The mean one flipped out, simply because the sweet one was no longer so dependent on her for social companionship. The mean one made various mean-spirited accusations, most notably that the sweet one and her new friends were on the hunt for men (an interesting bit of projection there). In response, the sweet one withdrew further, and the mean one just became all the more bitter and resentful.

So it turns out that these two good buddies weren't really friends at all, any more than two people in a co-dependent partnership are really lovers. The mean one liked having the sweet one around because she could boost her own ego by talking down to her, and the sweet one was so good-natured, self-effacing, and isolated that she just took it. In reality, their "friendship" was very ugly and manipulative, and it fell apart as soon as the sweet one started taking better care of herself by getting out and making new friends.

Now, I'm not saying that your friendship with your housemate is similarly ugly. But I do think that a good measure of a friendship (or any relationship) is how each friend responds to the other looking after her own individual well-being. You, sikora, are clearly ready to sacrifice (and risk) a great deal to help your friend. Is she willing to do the same for you? And, perhaps more important, how will she respond to your doing what you need to do to take care of yourself?

The ideal friendship/relationship is one in which each person takes good care of herself individually and supports the other in doing the same. A more problematic but still workable relationship is one where neither person takes good care of herself, but both do their best to take care of the other (this was my marriage for many years). Where you really get into trouble is when neither person takes good care of herself, but one conscientiously looks after the other while the other takes advantage. And note that this latter situation is bad even if the one taking advantage does so unintentionally, just by being a very needy person who is so overwhelmed by her own problems that she is oblivious to the needs of others.

On that note, I have to comment on this:

I wouldn't go so far as t_r_b on the borderline personality awful manipulator route, but it does sound like she's perfectly happy to inconvenience you. 

I certainly didn't mean to suggest that the roommate is borderline. I haven't heard anything that points toward that diagnosis. Narcissistic, maybe, but not borderline. And it's most likely not a personality disorder at all, but rather a person who (unlike sikora) has learned to seek relief from her woes in the caregiving of others. Some of us learn as children that if it hurts, you suck it up. Others learn that if it hurts, the only way to make it stop is to whine loud enough that someone else makes it feel better. It sounds like Sikora falls firmly in the former camp, while the roommate is much more in the latter (and on the pain management front, I like macaroon's suggestion a lot).


And possibly the problem here is that both of you are having difficulty advocating for yourselves. :)

Yes yes yes. The roommate isn't good at being the squeaky wheel in the health care system, which is designed to screw over all non-squeaky wheels. And she's found it's much easier to squeak at sikora, who is much more compassionate (and closer at hand) than the health care bureaucrats. The roommate probably does feel just as helpless as she represents herself, but that doesn't mean that she actually IS that helpless, and it certainly doesn't make it sikora's job to make up for the difficulties inherent in getting decent care in this country.

Meanwhile, we have a nice evening together.  I made quinoa pilaf and steamed broccoli and resisted getting up to feed her dog.  Roommate did the Frankenstein walk to her dog's food bin, to the kitchen sink, placed the food bowl on the floor, and back again to the couch. I had to consciously make myself not offer to do it myself.

Please recognize that the Frankenstein walk is part of the manipulation. If she constantly repeats, "Sikora, please feed my dog for me," you will sooner or later decide she is being too demanding and stop complying. It's much more effective (at winning your compliance) for her to make a performance out of her efforts to take care of herself, so as to fill you with sympathy and guilt (after all, you can walk around normally: shouldn't you be helping more?)

I'm not saying that she is doing all of this intentionally, or fraudulently: she really is uncomfortable, and she really feels like she can't perform basic tasks easily. But I suspect that she isn't actually as uncomfortable as she appears, and that she would walk less awkwardly if she were more determined to take care of herself. Since she feels helpless, she doesn't, and since she needs you to recognize and validate her helplessness, she acts it out a bit. I did pretty much the same thing when I was a kid and didn't want to go to school. I really did feel kind of ill, but my parents didn't take my illness seriously enough: they still insisted that I go to school! So I exaggerated my symptoms a bit: not because I was deliberately trying to mislead them, but because they clearly needed more prompting to recognize the stay-home-from-school-level severity of my ailments. Sadly, this tactic did not often work on my parents, which is probably why I don't do this today. But maybe it worked a bit better on your roommate's parents.

Great job, by the way, on consciously noticing and suppressing the urge to feed the dog for her. That's exactly what you need to be doing right now, both for your own well-being and to encourage her not to depend on you too much (and to depend on herself more).

My Army experience is not helping, because in the Army to work through pain even when it means long term damage is both honorable and required.  Esp. for women.  It's hard to let that go.

Your army training and, IIRC, the emotional abuse of your childhood. For a long time, you have been living with cognitive distortions telling you that you are a deeply flawed human being who doesn't deserve love and care, but that you owe lots of love and care to others. You have come a long way toward overcoming those self-abnegating messages, but they got drilled into you at a pretty young age and are really hard to shake completely. So even though you've gotten much better at taking care of yourself, and recognizing that you deserve to take good care of yourself, you remain very susceptible to the suggestion that you need to set your own needs aside to take care of someone else. And there are definitely people in this world who thrive on taking advantage of others with that susceptibility. Maybe your roommate is one of those manipulators, or maybe she's just hurt and scared. Either way, in the long run, you setting aside your own needs to take care of her is not going to do either of you any good. A true friend would be far too concerned about your health to let you do that.
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sikora
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« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2009, 08:08:58 AM »

I'm not putting up the plastic or raking the leaves.  Raking the leaves hurts.  I hate doing it anyway.
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marigolds
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« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2009, 01:11:22 PM »

I'm not putting up the plastic or raking the leaves.  Raking the leaves hurts.  I hate doing it anyway.

GOOD.

And dude, you're saving her house for her: both by being willing to be listed on the mortgage as a housemate (does this make you responsible in any way for the mortgage, by the way?) AND by paying more than half of the mortgage payments.  Anything else that needs to be paid for - and I mean anything at all, like, oh, a neighborhood teen to rake leaves, or repair/maintenance bills - needs to be paid by her, as she is building long-term equity in this place and you, presumably, are not.

Keep squishing down the guilt.  I keep remembering something bread_pirate_naan said a while ago: you can just feel the feelings, you don't need to take action on the feelings.  So it's fine to feel guilty, as long as you don't get up and do stuff that hurts you or sets a bad precedent in order to try to make the guilt feelings go away. 
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t_r_b
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« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2009, 02:02:33 PM »

I'm not putting up the plastic or raking the leaves.  Raking the leaves hurts.  I hate doing it anyway.

GOOD.

And dude, you're saving her house for her: both by being willing to be listed on the mortgage as a housemate (does this make you responsible in any way for the mortgage, by the way?) AND by paying more than half of the mortgage payments.  Anything else that needs to be paid for - and I mean anything at all, like, oh, a neighborhood teen to rake leaves, or repair/maintenance bills - needs to be paid by her, as she is building long-term equity in this place and you, presumably, are not.

Yes. Also, you will learn a lot about her, and your friendship with her, by how she responds to your drawing these very reasonable boundaries. A good friend will respect your needs. A manipulator will either up the guilt trips (including the Frankenstein walk) or just flip out on you. Either way, lack of respect for your needs is a clue that this is not someone you can count on when you need a friend.
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Quote from: prytania3
If you want to be zen, then stay in the freaking moment.
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A lot of the people posting on this thread need to go out and get kohlrabi.
sikora
Looking for something, but forgot what it was.
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Arrggh! WTF??


« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2009, 04:29:46 PM »

I'm not putting up the plastic or raking the leaves.  Raking the leaves hurts.  I hate doing it anyway.

GOOD.

And dude, you're saving her house for her: both by being willing to be listed on the mortgage as a housemate (does this make you responsible in any way for the mortgage, by the way?) AND by paying more than half of the mortgage payments.  Anything else that needs to be paid for - and I mean anything at all, like, oh, a neighborhood teen to rake leaves, or repair/maintenance bills - needs to be paid by her, as she is building long-term equity in this place and you, presumably, are not.

Yes. Also, you will learn a lot about her, and your friendship with her, by how she responds to your drawing these very reasonable boundaries. A good friend will respect your needs. A manipulator will either up the guilt trips (including the Frankenstein walk) or just flip out on you. Either way, lack of respect for your needs is a clue that this is not someone you can count on when you need a friend.

How's this for passive-aggressive on my part.  I just received my appointment notification for the orthopedic clinic.  I've left the notice on the table for her to see.
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Stop plate tectonics!

and while we're at it ...

Free kittens!
and
Free the bound morpheme!
kedves
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« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2009, 04:42:34 PM »

Do you know yet what are the possibilities for your surgery date?  If you wanted to do it soon, would that be possible?  I'm asking because I know these things vary by hospital and surgeon availability, but I don't know what is typical.

I think you are doing pretty well to recognize the nuances in what's going on.
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