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[no_quarter]

Maybe I'm a coward, but I think I would consider adding her name (email or school address) to a work-appropriate clothing website/catalog.  Someone upthread mentioned Ann Taylor Loft, which I think is a good suggestion.

Yes. You are a coward.

[no_quarter]

I agree that one must tread carefully when critiquing others' wardrobe choices, but the idea of positive reinforcement for making good choices ("Wow, that's a great outfit today!"), as suggested up thread, would probably be the way I'd go about it. 

...And depending on the tone in which you phrased that "positive reinforcement", we may or may not have a private conversation about it. Be careful.

I work a department which has no stated dress code with classes which require me to be in fitness clothing twice out of the week by nature of my labs and its practical benefit. I work with someone who is tenured who makes comments (such as the above) the three days iI have on "business attire" (i.e. Banana Republic, K&G, Polo, yatta yatta).

She phrases her "positive reinforcement" in a manner which I feel is condensending. It would be easy to say that is the case because "I am the new kid on the block", which I'm not (4yrs in). It would also be easy to say that she makes these comments because she has a problem with how to converse with a person of color, which I suspect, but can't prove. Despite this, I am on to her b.s., while staying productive and well respected in my field.

I don't feel like I am any less than a scholar based on my choice of clothing each day. I play the game enough to keep everyone in check. I don't need a parent. I just need someone to allow me to do my job effectively without placing a construct of how I'm supposed to look on me. Besides, I have generally found that people are going to think what they want to about you anyway.

This unproductive sloth didn't have a problem.

http://dailyyeah.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/albert-einstein-1.jpg


I think I would have liked working with him...

[conjugate]

I agree that one must tread carefully when critiquing others' wardrobe choices, but the idea of positive reinforcement for making good choices ("Wow, that's a great outfit today!"), as suggested up thread, would probably be the way I'd go about it. 

...And depending on the tone in which you phrased that "positive reinforcement", we may or may not have a private conversation about it. Be careful.

I work a department which has no stated dress code with classes which require me to be in fitness clothing twice out of the week by nature of my labs and its practical benefit. I work with someone who is tenured who makes comments (such as the above) the three days iI have on "business attire" (i.e. Banana Republic, K&G, Polo, yatta yatta).

She phrases her "positive reinforcement" in a manner which I feel is condensending. It would be easy to say that is the case because "I am the new kid on the block", which I'm not (4yrs in). It would also be easy to say that she makes these comments because she has a problem with how to converse with a person of color, which I suspect, but can't prove. Despite this, I am on to her b.s., while staying productive and well respected in my field.

I don't feel like I am any less than a scholar based on my choice of clothing each day. I play the game enough to keep everyone in check. I don't need a parent. I just need someone to allow me to do my job effectively without placing a construct of how I'm supposed to look on me. Besides, I have generally found that people are going to think what they want to about you anyway.

This unproductive sloth didn't have a problem.

http://dailyyeah.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/albert-einstein-1.jpg


I think I would have liked working with him...

It's true that we would all like to be regarded based only on our academic credentials.  I suspect your colleague is afraid for you that you won't be.  Still, it sounds like you dress perfectly appropriately.  I typically wear jeans and T-shirt, myself, and have never heard any suggestion from my colleagues (many of whom dress in similar style) that I should up my game sartorially.

[rowan1]

When I started in my new TT job last fall I intentionally dressed more formally and conservatively then I ever used to.  I asked female colleagues that I had connected with what their thoughts were on the departmental attitude toward dress (it is a mixed department with very "Professional" degrees and more artistic or technical degrees and these differences are clearly reflected in the way faculty dress).

I started losening up and reverting to "my style" which is basically jeans and nice tops once I felt a bit more established.  I still work to match the business casual style fo the department if I have to attend college or University functions and for the first few classes of each term.

It is completly bogus that clothing has such an impact on how you are precieved in terms of professionalism, scholarship, teching ability, etc.  But we can't chagne the world by getting tossed out of it.

I would speak to your colleague and say straight out - "Here in this department dress styles influence people's perceptions of you.  I want you to succeed but you need to be aware of some pitfalls you may be facing."  Also offer her some ideas so its not just a "Hey you got a problem so fix it bye" kind of conversation.

Maybe I am just older and have been in an industry that is all about "looks" for way too many years, but I would love it if a senior colleague was willing to speak to me honestly about ways to improve my odds for tenure. 

[southern_outlier]

I'm hoping that my colleague will return from her conference with a renewed clothing attitude and, maybe a few clothing bargains.

I'll keep you all posted. Tomorrow might be very interesting.

[sci_case]

When I started in my new TT job last fall I intentionally dressed more formally and conservatively then I ever used to.  I asked female colleagues that I had connected with what their thoughts were on the departmental attitude toward dress (it is a mixed department with very "Professional" degrees and more artistic or technical degrees and these differences are clearly reflected in the way faculty dress).

I started losening up and reverting to "my style" which is basically jeans and nice tops once I felt a bit more established.  I still work to match the business casual style fo the department if I have to attend college or University functions and for the first few classes of each term.

It is completly bogus that clothing has such an impact on how you are precieved in terms of professionalism, scholarship, teching ability, etc.  But we can't chagne the world by getting tossed out of it.

+1 on this...

While I don't do anything egregious, I intentionally dress very casually, in part because that is my preference, and in part to try to undermine the norms and expectations for dress in my field.  Those norms essentially say, "we should judge people by the way they look."  I especially want to be an example to my students by being a well-informed, well-prepared, effective instructor, who treats people with respect (and does so in jeans, no less!).

This is much easier with tenure, of course.

[1233312]

Late response, but for more style ideas: workchic.com
(what I especially like is that they separate out into casual, biz casual and formal sections. It being a fashion blog, even the professional ideas are sometimes too flashy, but good ideas.)

This is certainly why if you are going into an office-based career (vs. wetland sloshing), you should start trying to dress at least business casual as a grad student, as then you'll stretch out those purchases over time, and have comfortable, natural feeling set of ordinary work clothes. Well, this has been my strategy at least, with a considerable amount of items bought from ebay, etc. (note, bid lower than your preferred price for suits because you'll probably need tailoring for correct right.) I think the only downside of this plan is that these days my closet does lack for grungy day at the mall outfits, but no big loss there. I think I have what, two pairs of jeans I wear with any regularity these days? 

In a reasonably professional department, it is a good idea to have, in addition to the interview suit, a base of at least one 'separates' suit, or something that is more casual, and the reason is so you can mix and match. Truth be told, I just scrounged together a black jacket and skirt from a thrift that worked well enough together. It worked so well I probably have at least 3 iterations of this. And it's so nice to have a suit-like thing that I don't have to worry about keeping immaculate. Mine gets dry cleaned very rarely, and one of the jackets in the rotation can go in the wash. This is very helpful when you're in a hurry in the morning too - you only have to think about a shirt and shoes.

for those worried about too much repeating of outfits, you probably think people care more than they do. people might remember something distinctive, but not a basic outfit. I'm recalling an older article in the new york times about a woman who wore the same dress for a full year and found that people actually noticed it a lot less than she thought they would. (too lazy to find a link.)

PS, if you have the button up shirt vs. rack issues, then don't go there. You have other options though. These are some for under a suit jacket: 1) turtlenecks, which can be long or short 2) whatever under suit type shirts ann taylor might have on sale 3) bigger size button up shirt with cami underneath 4) some kind of light sweater, short or long sleeve

[oldfullprof]

If she's in cultural studies, English, or foreign languages, it's cool.  Otherwise, no.

[parispundit]

Let me give a curmudgeon's view. Formal dress is good manners. In the nicest, most unthreatening way possible, colleague should be told she has been exhibiting bad manners. The causes may be multiple: no clothes sense, no money, no interest in good manners, etc. The solutions will naturally depend on the cause(s). But unless colleague recognizes there is a problem, no solution is possible.

[southern_outlier]

As an update I'll say that although she still has had some issues with her clothing the challenges are different since she's pregnant.

 

[kedves]

As an update I'll say that although she still has had some issues with her clothing the challenges are different since she's pregnant.

Oh, dear.  Did you ever discuss it?  (If so) Apart from the results, how did the conversation go?

[dr_prephd]

the button up shirt vs. rack issue

Love the way you phrased this. It's an issue I often have, and I'm glad to have a name for it.

[mdwlark]

You could preface your conversation by noting that you'd like to speak with her about something that she may end up being angry with you about, but that her success is ultimately more important than your fear that she'll resent you. I also think that offering to accompany her to Target or a consignment store would be nice. It would show that you are indeed invested in assisting her and not just nitpicking.

Ipm sorry lizzy, don't like this at all.  Just say what you want to say in a genuine spirit of helpfulness.  I would be really annoyed if someone prefaced her remarks to me with, "this may make you angry and resentful but I'm only trying to help you."  This preface doesn't lessen the effect, it makes it worse. There are a lot of other possible reactions she could have--gratitude, surprise, contemplation, reflection, bemusement, disdain.  You are eliminating them as possibilities and stating that you expect the two unsavory ones from her.  That speaks badly of your opinion of her or badly of you and your intentions.  It is even worse if it is attached to, "I'm only trying to help you" which adds even more of an attitude of superiority.  I like parispundant's comments much better because they are original and reframe the situation.  Dressing up is a gesture of respect for other people.  "You people are worth dressing up for." 

[spyzowin]

I guess another caveat to this thread should be...

if you are wearing an elastic waisted skirt or birkenstocks or a polyester short sleeved shirt or a ruffled blouse or pleated chinos or a golf shirt or if your idea of jewelry is a cameo brooch or a college ring... you probably shouldn't be giving clothing advice to anyone.

Personally, I'm not a slob anymore, but I still don't dress that well. Although I don't wear jeans, (well sometimes I do, but they're Paper Denim or Earnest Sewn), I do buy my dress shirts at Banana Republic or the Gap. I don't ever wear dress shoes (I like blundstones and clarks desert boots). I'm just an average sort of guy. I wear the same thing to the job that I wear every day. I don't know what I'm trying to say.

I've read this whole thread and it just sort of skeeves me out.

I just don't think it's cool to tell someone with a PhD how to dress.

[southern_outlier]

amnirov: I understand. It's difficult to make suggestions to anyone even when they ask. I started the thread because I'm concerned about how this new hire is perceived. And, it's probably difficult to guess what others are thinking I just know what I've been hearing and I want her (yes, her) to be taken seriously. She's so young, you know.