|
zuzu_
|
 |
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2009, 09:38:01 AM » |
|
Others upthread have said that they would be "highly offended" if someone suggested in a friendly way that they reconsider their wardrobe choices in order to better fit into departmental/university/college culture. Really??? You would be offended if a senior colleague who has befriended you takes it upon herself to have what is certain to be an uncomfortable conversation because she is concerned about the potential impact your clothes could have on your career? That seems to me to be an inappropriate response to a clearly well-intentioned act, and anyone being honest with themselves would see it as such. I can understand embarrassment at first (who wouldn't feel embarrassed?), but hate and resentment? She could just say "Thanks anyway for your well-intentioned advice, but I wear what I like and people need to accept that" and forget about it.
I'm the one who said this. I actually have a senior female colleague who I can imagine might say something like this to me--she has had similar conversations (not about clothes, but other "friendly warnings.") I BEHAVE professionally and say something like what you suggested, but PRIVATELY I would FEEL offended and resentful. While I would likely try to give her the benefit of doubt as to her good intentions, I would also likely believe that my colleague was motivated by her own jealously and insecurity. But perhaps I am projecting my personal relationship dynamics into an entirely different situation. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
macaroon
|
|
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2009, 10:38:40 AM » |
|
Others upthread have said that they would be "highly offended" if someone suggested in a friendly way that they reconsider their wardrobe choices in order to better fit into departmental/university/college culture. Really???
I'm offended when the word "sexy" is used. Allow me to reiterate that my wardrobe choices are impeccable and professional. No above the knee skirts, and no low cut necklines. I never show too much skin. I wear low heels and a small amount of neutral toned makeup. I do.not.dress.like.a.stripper. But I've gotten the sexy comment from several women. I'm very uncomfortable with having my body discussed in a professional setting, even in a "complementary" way. Sexy isn't really a compliment. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
scampster
|
|
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2009, 01:24:24 PM » |
|
Others upthread have said that they would be "highly offended" if someone suggested in a friendly way that they reconsider their wardrobe choices in order to better fit into departmental/university/college culture. Really???
I'm offended when the word "sexy" is used. Allow me to reiterate that my wardrobe choices are impeccable and professional. No above the knee skirts, and no low cut necklines. I never show too much skin. I wear low heels and a small amount of neutral toned makeup. I do.not.dress.like.a.stripper. But I've gotten the sexy comment from several women. I'm very uncomfortable with having my body discussed in a professional setting, even in a "complementary" way. Sexy isn't really a compliment. What a weird thing to say to someone anyway! For starters, what people think is sexy is varied (I would guess while most of the department might agree on what is professional, everyone has their own preferences when it comes to sexy). Maybe they're hitting on you? :-) |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
When you are a scientist your opinions and prejudices become facts. Science is like magic that way!
|
|
|
|
the_honey_badger
|
|
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2009, 05:15:43 PM » |
|
This morning I was asked to speak to one of the adjuncts about her attire---since I'm a woman and the chair didn't feel comfortable and thought maybe I could have a "friendly word with her." The issue is that she wears low-rider jeans and cropped shirts so she's not only too casual (jeans) for our department but the amount of skin she's showing is definitely not something you see here at Southern Conservative U among instructional faculty. That's covered in TA training (proper classroom attire) but not for faculty.
I thought of this thread and refused. I decided that he gets the "big money" to take care of those issues and I realized that I'd likely be labeled "insecure" or "jealous" or a prude or something. Normally I'd save the youngish woman the talk with Mr. Awkward but, hey, why bother? Thanks for the timely posts! It never occurred to me that informing someone of the deparment/college standards or the chair's concerns would be considered my personal issue or psychological problem-----but why take the chance? He'll probably avoid doing it and just not renew her next semester but, hey, not *my* problem right?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
_____________________________________
"Honey badger don't care."
|
|
|
|
lurquita
|
|
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2009, 06:08:21 PM » |
|
It never occurred to me that informing someone of the deparment/college standards or the chair's concerns would be considered my personal issue or psychological problem-----but why take the chance? He'll probably avoid doing it and just not renew her next semester but, hey, not *my* problem right? I don't think it is your problem, actually. The chair is the one who renews or does not renew. If the woman (no matter her age) is so tone-deaf that she's prancing around in belly shirts, maybe this is time for her wake-up call. Anyone who wears low-riders and half-shirts knows what they are communicating. And if the chair thinks she is a valuable instructor, then the chair can grow a pair and speak to the person in a professional, clear, and direct fashion. The chair needs to grow up and do his job. If the chair just can't get it together enough to have a professional, respectful, clear, and direct conversation with this woman, and she can't put two and two together, that says a lot about (a) your chair and (b) the lack of common sense of this employee. What it does not say, at least to me, is that you should be the hatchet gal/busybody. Like "sexy", "youngish" is a clue to me that there are value judgments going on here, ones that go a bit past the issue of professionalism and self=presentation. It *does* sound catty. And I would not have said anything, but you asked...so, pardon if I have offended, but that is my .02 pesetas. Lurquita |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"When I negotiate, I want to see the other guy's blood on the table" (Mozman)
|
|
|
|
prephd
|
|
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2009, 07:20:51 PM » |
|
I have hesitated to have this conversation with new employees, for many of the reasons outlined here. Without a dress code, I have no ground to stand on, anyway, and there are different interpretations of "professional."
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Prephd, in all that black, you are like the anti-pink-me. Freewill is a beeyaaatch
|
|
|
|
kedves
|
|
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2009, 07:32:50 PM » |
|
I suggested the external tactless "friend's" assistance because this sort of help, regardless of how necessary, career-transforming, and well-intentioned, always generates hostility. This is a perennial Dear Abby-type question (she would alawys say it is your duty to tell) and we have a thread ("Too embarrassed to tell you") for it. It's better for everyone if the hostility can be directed outward, beyond the department. But if we are asking what we would do, I, too, would say nothing and let the chips fall where they may. I'm not that nice.
A male chair is seldom going to give advice of this type to a female faculty member. If it doesn't get said in the first year, it will never be said. Good luck, new TT colleague!
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 07:34:32 PM by kedves »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
macaroon
|
|
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2009, 08:09:58 PM » |
|
Others upthread have said that they would be "highly offended" if someone suggested in a friendly way that they reconsider their wardrobe choices in order to better fit into departmental/university/college culture. Really???
I'm offended when the word "sexy" is used. Allow me to reiterate that my wardrobe choices are impeccable and professional. No above the knee skirts, and no low cut necklines. I never show too much skin. I wear low heels and a small amount of neutral toned makeup. I do.not.dress.like.a.stripper. But I've gotten the sexy comment from several women. I'm very uncomfortable with having my body discussed in a professional setting, even in a "complementary" way. Sexy isn't really a compliment. What a weird thing to say to someone anyway! For starters, what people think is sexy is varied (I would guess while most of the department might agree on what is professional, everyone has their own preferences when it comes to sexy). Maybe they're hitting on you? :-) Ha! Hitting on me! Next time it happens, maybe I'll ask! "This outfit is too sexy? I'm sorry, were you just trying to make a pass at me?" I'm thinking that they noticed men checking me out as I walked away and were bothered for some reason by that. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
madhatter
We proudly present the fora's Least
Member-Moderator
Distinguished Senior Member
Posts: 5,348
Just killing time
|
|
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2009, 08:53:39 PM » |
|
There's only one adjective needed for this conversation: "inappropriate." If Professor Paris Hilton can't figure it out from there, then it's time to draw a diagram.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"I may be an evil scientist, but it doesn't take a degree purchased from the Internet with your ex-wife's money to know how special and important you are to me." -- Dr. Doofenschmirtz
|
|
|
|
janewales
|
|
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2009, 08:24:17 AM » |
|
I don't think anyone should say anything. We're not talking about high school kids in their first job beyond flipping burgers. We're talking about highly educated adults. It's entirely possible that all of the clothing choices described thus far in the thread are deliberate ones, taken in full recognition of their implications-- for some people, their clothing choices might be political (Yes, I'm a woman. Get over it). I have male colleagues who've been wearing the same jeans for the last 20 years (to whom I'm dying to say, "No, people, we don't wear jeans above the ankle anymore and we don't tuck shirts into them, either"-- whoops, sorry, got distracted there) and those guys actually make my point. They do not care at all what they wear, or what people think about it, and there have never been professional consequences for them. Ah, you're saying, but it's different for women. Yes, it is, but some women might have decided it shouldn't be, and they too should be judged on their performance and not on their appearance. And maybe that's what's behind the clothing choices.
Or maybe they just can't afford a power suit yet.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
oatmeal
|
|
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2009, 01:34:40 PM » |
|
I agree with those who stated that you should not comment. I would find such comments petty and annoying, and perhaps even offensive (though I would say that to myself and not react publicly). I understand that your concern comes from a good place, but the person in question might not. Perhaps see if things change over the semester--as it gets colder and the seasons change... I would be more concerned with the teaching, and how the person is adapting to a new job, new colleagues and settling into a new place. Your well meaning comments might cause anxiety or stress, when the new TT colleague is probably exhausted and stressed enough. Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
kedves
|
|
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2009, 01:38:42 PM » |
|
OP, have you considered sending this question to Ms. Mentor? I'd like to know what she would say.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
locutus
|
|
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2009, 01:56:32 PM » |
|
They do not care at all what they wear, or what people think about it, and there have never been professional consequences for them. Ah, you're saying, but it's different for women. Yes, it is, but some women might have decided it shouldn't be, and they too should be judged on their performance and not on their appearance. And maybe that's what's behind the clothing choices.
Or maybe they just can't afford a power suit yet.
A colleague of mine made the same point at a recent conference. Even in our female dominated field the men by and large dress casually and the women "power suit up" or wear something otherwise fancy. To paraphrase my friend, even with more women we have to work harder to be taken seriously. I'm not sure what she would say here. There's a difference between too casual and too "sexy" . Granted I haven't seen the outfit in question, but what the OP described seems casual to me. My colleague seems pro-casual, or at least pro having standards the same for everyone. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Render unto Geedorah what is Geedorah's.
|
|
|
|
magistra
|
|
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2009, 03:46:44 PM » |
|
I'd tell her, nicely. But I'm betting it's a money issue. Maybe buy her a nice cardigan for Christmas?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
First it was Wolfram and Hart, now it's Blackboard. There's not much moral difference, if you ask me. -- Malcha
Grammar is the chocolate in the buttery croissant of life. -- Yellowtractor
Okay, so that was petty. Today, I feel like embracing pettiness. -- Mended Drum
|
|
|
|
prephd
|
|
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2009, 07:34:41 PM » |
|
I, too, would like to see a link to an example of the outfit in question.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Prephd, in all that black, you are like the anti-pink-me. Freewill is a beeyaaatch
|
|
|
|
