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[humanfactor]

I've been reflecting a bit on the position of postdoc, both literally and figuratively, relative to phd students and faculty. Wanted to hear your thoughts.

Literally: where do/did you (or your post-docs) have their work space? In a private office? In a shared space with other faculty/researchers? In a shared space with graduate students? In a "student" area or a "faculty" area of the floor/building?

Figuratively: how are/were you (or your post-docs) treated, compared to people in other positions? Closer to grad student or closer to faculty? Exactly in between? Somewhere on some entirely different dimension than student/faculty?

I imagine the above are contingent on who is the individual doing the post-doc, their field, the institution, etc. What do you think are some of those contingencies?

p.s. I'll answer my own questions later, after hearing from you all :)

[lethalfang]

Much closer to being a grad student than being a faculty member.

[totoro]

I had my own office. Grad students had to share offices. Faculty, grad students and me (the only postdoc) all hung out together.

[kunsthistorikerin]

I think there's a difference between humanities and sciences for this sort of thing, yes?  Between fields that need labs and fields that don't?  I'm in the humanities, and don't need much beyond books and a room of my own in order to feel like a faculty member - it's very rare in my field for a graduate student to ever have a private office or to teach courses beyond the TA level, which in my mind puts postdocs much closer to profs. 

I'm starting a postdoc in the Fall, so I don't yet know what the reality will be like, but the offer letter from the dean basically said "you will be a non-continuing faculty member, you will be expected to attend faculty meetings, you will have a faculty office in the department, and you will get faculty benefites -- the difference is that you only teach half as much as the faculty, you get paid about half as much, and your position is only going to last for three years maximum."  There was also a line about them welcoming my application if any tt jobs open while I am there, but that's just them being polite; it's a safe bet that that won't happen for various site-specific reasons.

I've gotten very warm and friendly e-mails from various faculty members, and in general they are far more casual and familiar in tone than anything I ever got from faculty as a graduate student.  This may in part be a difference in campus culture, but the place where I'm going for the postdoc and the places where I've been as a students are all roughly comparable in terms of prestige, size, etc.  (I guess home was more "old school", new place is more "up and coming", but in terms of bigwig faculty and departmental swagger it's about the same.)  I met several students during the campus visit, and none of them have been in touch; the faculty, on the other hand, are already planning various welcoming lunches, etc., for me in the Fall.

All this makes me think I'll be treated more like a faculty member than a graduate student, but on the other hand I am not sure if this is just part of the honeymoon period, and perhaps I'll feel differently when I actually get there.  So, I'm interested to read more about everyone else's experiences...

cheers,
KH

[midtownlabgeek]

Physical sciences here, at the same R1 for PhD and postdoc.  In both labs (as a grad student in the first, as a postdoc in the second), grad students and postdocs were seated together in one big room, each with their own desk.  (Undergrads were in there also, they generally didn't get an assigned desk to leave stuff in.)  When grad students and postdocs were working on the same project/experiment, there was generally a perception that the postdoc was "in charge", but that was more based on deferring to experience than real authority. 

So postdocs were seen as slightly more experienced versions of grad students - not even necessarily more experienced in that particular type of research, since a lot of them/us had/were crossing over into a slightly different area.

[corny]

I agree with kunsthistorikerin that there's probably a difference between humanities and science postdocs. I've got a humanities postdoc. Officially, I am faculty - I get the faculty benefits package, am on the faculty email lists, my ID card says "faculty," etc. Unofficially, I'd also say I feel more like faculty than like a grad student (though that's also been a question of psychological adjustment on my part!). I have my own office, teach all my own classes, etc. At the same time, I don't have all the obligations of a TT prof - no service or advising duties, for example. In a way, it's like being faculty-in-training, if that makes sense.

One of my students who was a nursing major once asked me what a postdoc was and when I explained it to her she said, "oh, it's like a residency" - that might be one way to think about it too...

[scampster]

First off, sciences here.

Literally: where do/did you (or your post-docs) have their work space? In a private office? In a shared space with other faculty/researchers? In a shared space with graduate students? In a "student" area or a "faculty" area of the floor/building?

I share an office with one other person who is technically a researcher, but really is just a student taking a year off between masters and PhD. The faculty and student offices are mixed in my building, so my office is mixed amongst both.

Figuratively: how are/were you (or your post-docs) treated, compared to people in other positions? Closer to grad student or closer to faculty? Exactly in between? Somewhere on some entirely different dimension than student/faculty?

I have a faculty appointment and no one cares when I come and go and take leave and all that (I tried to ask permission once to take leave and a supervisor just bluntly said "We don't care. You don't need permission."), so in that regard I am treated closer to faculty I would say. But in terms of my day to day work, I would say I am a glorified grad student. I was hired to work on one project and my job is to work on said project, which I do independently. Once a week, my supervisors and I meet and discuss my progress. There are also no grad students on my research project, so I am the lowest rung of the ladder.

One major caveat is that I am in a mostly soft money lab, so in addition to grad students and faculty, there are a boatload of researchers with PhDs who aren't postdocs, but aren't faculty either. So I really kind of blend in with them.

[totoro]

In Australia (where my wife is currently a post-doc, econ) and in the UK (where I was a post-doc, econ) post-docs are faculty members on the lowest rung of the career level - level A. This is paid about $A60-70k at universities and more than that at CSIRO where my wife is. In the UK I did admin stuff (the grant that paid my salary was for "program development") taught tutorials, went to faculty meetings etc. Socially, grad students, me, and single/visiting faculty tended to hang out at the pub etc. Married faculty tended to hang out less.

PS faculty in Australia now have to officially request leave in the last few years. Nobody cares where you are for a day or two but longer absences would have to be officially requested...

[locutus]

Literally: where do/did you (or your post-docs) have their work space? In a private office? In a shared space with other faculty/researchers? In a shared space with graduate students? In a "student" area or a "faculty" area of the floor/building?

Most have shared space in or near their lab. I work in a shared office than includes grad students, postdocs and full time RAs.

Figuratively: how are/were you (or your post-docs) treated, compared to people in other positions? Closer to grad student or closer to faculty? Exactly in between? Somewhere on some entirely different dimension than student/faculty?

I wouldn't say there is a universal way they are treated, even in my department. It all depends on what role the faculty advisor and the postdoc envision. Some have more independence and responsibilities than others. Officially in the eyes of the administration postdocs are faculty, but all that really means is they may be allowed to teach a course if they want and they get the same parking pass as professors do.

[merinoblue]

Figuratively: how are/were you (or your post-docs) treated, compared to people in other positions? Closer to grad student or closer to faculty? Exactly in between? Somewhere on some entirely different dimension than student/faculty?

No answer for you, but I have a story to share.

Some years ago while I was struggling to get my dissertation fieldwork off the ground, I discovered that a PhD student (in another discipline at another university) whose work I had admired and followed for several years was in the same city, now as a postdoc. I cold-called her via email, told her how excited I was about her work, and proposed we meet over lunch to....network, I thought. Share tips, advice, strategy, etc.  You know, as two striving scholars (even though I was about 15 years older than her). We met, and she spent the first 45 minutes of our lunch outlining her pedigree and training, and putting me in my place in the academic hierarchy. I made the mistake (ahem) of implying that as a postdoc she was, well, just a postdoc. She stopped me and said with discernible contempt for my ignorance, "At X University, postdocs are faculty." She got hers, though. Towards the end of our delightfully collegial lunch, I casually mentioned that my supervisor was the world-renowned Dr. Y, who just happened to be arriving that week as a visiting speaker in the speaker series that my new dear friend was organizing. I had the pleasure of watching her blanch as she realized that I might actually be somebody (if only by association). No, I never heard from her again.