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[csgirl]

As far as I can tell, WebCT was developed using 1998 technology and has never been updated. As far as I can tell, it is using Java applets, which no one in the web  development world has used since about 1998. I think this is why WebCT is so slow and clunky. But beyond its painful slowness, I also question whether it has ever been through any kind of real testing process. And clearly the people who developed it have never heard of designing a "user experience". Most of its interface is simply inscrutable. And of course, there is little useful documentation or help. For example, trying to figure out how to set up a gradebook, and how to get my Excel grades into it, and how to set properties so my students could see their grades, took me hours. And why, oh why, does it make me click so many times to see all the students in my gradebook. Bad, bad interface design.
Worse yet, it doesn't handle XML document correctly which is a serious problem for me since I am teaching an XML course. It insists on trying to parse them. And when I upload document, it cuts off the ending so I have to go back in and rename everything.
My students tried to submit assignments using it, but it won't let them add attachments that are larger than a certain cutoff - and our assignments are large. So the students all went back to sending me attachments using regular email.
I could go and on about its flaws. But the basic upshot is this : any course management system needs to be up-to-date in terms of its technology and user experience - otherwise, students and faculty won't like using it. It needs to be stable, and well tested. It needs to speed up a faculty member's job, not impede it. And it needs to be intuitive and well-documented. And it needs to run correctly on Firefox as well as Internet Explorer.

[der_gadfly]

What would a good course management system look like?

It is really a question of if you like whistles or bells. Ease of use is highly dependent on how much latitude is allowed by the system administrator. IF your online course is supposed to be structured in a particular way (i.e. all course documents  syllabi, reading list etc must be in one section) and you as instructor cannot create other online repositories, then no matter which platform is used, the experience will suck.

The bottom line: any instructor who wants to put their course online STILL needs to lay it all out on paper first.

[prof_smartypants]

I hate moodle. There's too much I have to do. I don't want flexibility, I want ease of use. Blackboard was freaking easy. My students could figure it out, I could figure it out, and everything worked. I've been using moodle for three months now, and I really hate it. All I want to do is to be able to upload grades and process final averages. I don't want to have some fancypants course website that I have to doctor up all the time. I just want to stick some readings on and compute grades, and I can't get stupid moodle to do that. And I'm not some idiot who can't figure out software - I'm good at this stuff. I HATE MOODLE.

[mayjohn]

I hate moodle. There's too much I have to do. I don't want flexibility, I want ease of use. Blackboard was freaking easy. My students could figure it out, I could figure it out, and everything worked. I've been using moodle for three months now, and I really hate it. All I want to do is to be able to upload grades and process final averages. I don't want to have some fancypants course website that I have to doctor up all the time. I just want to stick some readings on and compute grades, and I can't get stupid moodle to do that. And I'm not some idiot who can't figure out software - I'm good at this stuff. I HATE MOODLE.

I don't think Moodle is your problem but your local instructional design people and/or Moodle admin. Ask for a course template and step by step (should not be more then 5 steps) instructions on how to load the template every time you are teaching. I do take 5+ steps to configure a Blackboard course (remove the crap categories etc)...so the net effect is the same between the two.

Good luck!

[llanfair]

I'd gotten used to Blackboard, and was appalled to discover that WebCT couldn't handle large files - eg. PowerPoint slideshows of 12-20 slides.  Every image has to be uploaded separately, which is a major PITA - especially since I lose all the formatting I've done on each image to highlight certain features.

If Moodle is worse than WebCT, I just won't use it at all, and that will be a loss for my kids, who really like having access to the images.  I'd be sorry to give that up, but I won't have time to do otherwise.

[nordicexpat]

Well, I don't know Blackboard, but I don't think Moodle is all that difficult to figure out, especially if you can have someone give you some help or if you get a book on Moodle and just look for the things you want.  Really it is just a question of making one or two basic adjustments in settings, and everything else is automatic after that.  And I haven't heard students complain that moodle is all that difficult either.  There is a demo Moodle site that you can check out for yourself and see how it works (demo.moodle.org).  I had heard rumours Moodle was difficult but I was surprised by how easy I found it. Not denying that some people might hate it, however. 

But about large PP files: there's a couple of things you can do to reduce size of your files in PowerPoint. You might be able to compress the size of your images (Picture Tools- Format - Adjust - Compress, if you are using PP 2007). If that doesn't work, you might want to check out is a PowerPoint to Flash converter.  It radically reduces the sizes of your files.  There's a ton of them out there, ranging from free to, well, expensive, depending upon whether you want to add quizzes or interactions. 

In Moodle, at least, it is the IT people at your local institution who set the limit on the size of the files you can upload: you might want to check with your IT people to see if they can increase the limit (although most IT people don't like to do it). 

[magistra]

What would a good course management system look like?

What a huge question!

Just about any of the main players are actually pretty good, if they work properly. For example, WebCT (now Blackboard-something or another) would be great, except it's buggy as heck and is not well supported; for each thing that a WebCT/BB update fixes, two other items end up broken. We left WebCT/BB recently for ANGEL. Currently ANGEL is quite good, but having been bought out by Blackboard, we're expecting it to crumble from lack of support.

From my point of view, the platforms have hit a point where no one is really superior in terms of tools and organization. When one gets a new tool, the others follow. Organization of the platform is subjective--you'll never please everyone, so any reasonable organization works.

What I think people are going to be looking for is STABILITY: a platform that works perfectly with all current browsers and will easily accommodate the never-ending updates to those browsers; it will work equally well from mac & pc; it will need minimal plug-ins; it will have lots of room for enhancements/updates without having to go to a totally new version; it will not be released until it is well tested and very stable. Should be able to integrate easily with campus enrollment systems (like Banner, Datatel).
 
Personally, I like a system with lots of flexibility and options (but with easy defaults for the new user) and ANGEL seems to have this. I really like ANGEL's learning object repository and the way it's pretty quick and easy to throw in links from one part of the class to another. I wish it were quicker to do routine things (like to change a certain setting for each discussion, I have to change them manually, instead of all at once). Oh, and it'd be cool if it had a built in tool so I could make little audio/screen shots videos (like Jing).

As far as I can tell, WebCT was developed using 1998 technology and has never been updated. As far as I can tell, it is using Java applets, which no one in the web  development world has used since about 1998. I think this is why WebCT is so slow and clunky. But beyond its painful slowness, I also question whether it has ever been through any kind of real testing process. And clearly the people who developed it have never heard of designing a "user experience". Most of its interface is simply inscrutable. And of course, there is little useful documentation or help. For example, trying to figure out how to set up a gradebook, and how to get my Excel grades into it, and how to set properties so my students could see their grades, took me hours. And why, oh why, does it make me click so many times to see all the students in my gradebook. Bad, bad interface design.
Worse yet, it doesn't handle XML document correctly which is a serious problem for me since I am teaching an XML course. It insists on trying to parse them. And when I upload document, it cuts off the ending so I have to go back in and rename everything.
My students tried to submit assignments using it, but it won't let them add attachments that are larger than a certain cutoff - and our assignments are large. So the students all went back to sending me attachments using regular email.
I could go and on about its flaws. But the basic upshot is this : any course management system needs to be up-to-date in terms of its technology and user experience - otherwise, students and faculty won't like using it. It needs to be stable, and well tested. It needs to speed up a faculty member's job, not impede it. And it needs to be intuitive and well-documented. And it needs to run correctly on Firefox as well as Internet Explorer.

Chime on both these for BlackBoard Vista (the Bb-WebCT bastard offspring).  Especially that Java and browsers thing.  It takes forever to do a simple task sometimes; even when it works there are extra steps; and the designers clearly never spoke for a second to an actual, you know, educator.  I have an offer to teach online but I'd have to use it, and that's honestly a question for me.  It's just such a major source of frustration on a daily basis -- who needs it?  It makes Bb look good.

I can see that if you just want the basics BB or Vista would be fine, though.  It's when you try to actually use stuff like the grade book that you get into trouble.

[llanfair]

Thanks, NordicExpat - I'll look into compressing my PowerPoint files.  (I'm still using Office 2003, but hopefully I can figure it out.)

[nordicexpat]

Hi,
The point I forgot to mention is that you can also save your PP files as PDF: I would almost always do that if my slides just contained text and images, and there was no need to hide slides.  Hyperlinks will work as a PDF as well. 

[galactic_hedgehog]

Hi,
The point I forgot to mention is that you can also save your PP files as PDF: I would almost always do that if my slides just contained text and images, and there was no need to hide slides.  Hyperlinks will work as a PDF as well. 

I convert my slides to PDFs as well, but edit them first (get rid of redundancies and the occasional slide I don't want them to have) and them I make the PDFs of out of handouts with two slides per page, to reduce the quantity of paper they print out.

[llanfair]

Hi,
The point I forgot to mention is that you can also save your PP files as PDF: I would almost always do that if my slides just contained text and images, and there was no need to hide slides.  Hyperlinks will work as a PDF as well. 

I convert my slides to PDFs as well, but edit them first (get rid of redundancies and the occasional slide I don't want them to have) and them I make the PDFs of out of handouts with two slides per page, to reduce the quantity of paper they print out.

Great ideas, both.  Thanks loads!

[msmicrobe]

What would a good course management system look like?
[/quote]


For starters, it should do things that any basic software program can be expected to do. In Blackboard, you must handle one. file. at. a. time.

I can't have a folder with 4 items in it and tell blackboard to load all four of them to the same spot. Oh, no. That would make sense! So I spend a lot of time doing busy work. Ditto to delete items. You have to delete them on at a time. It's 2009. Even Microsoft OS has folders inside of folders and the ability to manipulate more than one file at a time. Not Blackboard.

A gradebook that can do simple math. Such as count points in columns that have zero possible points, but student scores in them. Currently, Blackboard ignores all data in columns with zero possible points. So if a student earns extra credit, I have to play mind games with the computer to trick Blackboard into doing simple math.

If you have a system that gives me those two basic features, I'm interested.  I'm pretty certain I'm not alone in this.

[mathspice]

I don't find Moodle as user-friendly as Blackboard. Blackboard is so clean and easy to use. I feel fortunate that our institution requires us to just use Moodle as a shell for our course, but my students follow a link to our publisher's course management system which is based in Blackboard (CourseCompass's MyMathLab -- couldn't imagine teaching math online -- or face-to-face -- without it!).

As far as I know, all Pearson textbooks have the online component available at:

www.coursecompass.com

[llanfair]

Since I last posted on this thread, I've started using Moodle, and so far, so good.  It can handle large uploads, unlike WebCT, and it's as easy to use (for my purposes) as Blackboard.  Easier, in many respects.

[laughin_otter]

My school--New England Culinary Institute, or NECI--uses Moodle and even though I haven't learned it yet, it seems to function quite well.  Maybe you could contact Peg dot Checchi at NECI dot edu, who is the Moodle guru there.  I'm sure she would be quite happy to advise.