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[dale1]

@adviceseeker:

I sent you a PM.  I am very familiar with IU and PU, as well as their diamond-in-the-rough cousin, IUPUI.

Hi - this thread touches on exactly what I'm cruising the internet trying to figure out.   I'm a mom with two sons who want to major in math and go on to a PhD program.  One is a college freshman now and the other is a high school junior, so I really have two sets of questions.

1.  My older son is a freshman at Univ of Rochester.  He is in the honors sequence, which starts with Calc I (using Spivak) and has 4 semesters in sequence - even for students who had Calc in high school.  He's not sure if he should sign up for other high level classes until he's finished those 4 core classes (this sequence includes a Calculus series and Linear Algebra).  Students there have a general adviser until they officially declare a major at the end of sophomore year, so he is planning to seek out the advice of a math prof even though he doesn't have an adviser in the math department yet.  He's planning on a physics minor and taking a lot more math classes than required for the math degree.  Also, he plans to get the BA with honors which requires at least 2 grad level courses. 

Question 1 - do you have any experience with undergrads from University of Rochester, and do you have an opinion on whether it will prepare him well for a Phd program?

Question 2 - he would love to find a program to participate in for the summer and he's found a bunch online that even include stipends, but most require him to have completed sophomore year or Linear Alg, neither of which he will have done yet for summer of 2011.  Any suggestions on programs he should look into for a student the summer after freshman year who will have had proof based Calc I & II, Mathematical Logic (he loves Logic so far) and a Statistics class by the time summer rolls around?  He has a great GPA so far if that helps.



2.  My high school junior is starting to look for colleges.  We are in Indiana, so our state schools include Purdue and IU.  He says he's more interested in pure math than applied.  He'd love to go to a smaller school somewhere if it has a good program and he can afford it (which means getting aid).  This is a student who is really good at math and loves it.  We didn't become aware of extra things to do outside of school (AMC, other contests) until recently and he doesn't have a straight A GPA, so I think some of the top notch schools you've mentioned in this thread are probably not in the running for him.  He'll be taking the AMC 12 this year, but I have no idea how he'll do on it - he thinks he'll do well just having prepped at home.  Despite the lack of extra things that prove he's good at math, for the sake of this discussion, maybe you can make undergrad suggestions based on the assumption that he really is talented in math, has A-'s and B+'s in math classes only because he doesn't always  hand in homework but gets the top score on most tests given in the class. He scored 800 in math for SAT and SAT II.  He hasn't had much formal help in learning math beyond the classroom, but sits around looking at math books a local prof loaned him and getting excited about what he learns in them.  He's taking Calc BC now and Multivariable next year as a senior.

Question 1:  So - any suggestions for schools that will give him a great undergrad math education?  I'm assuming he won't get into Yale, Harvey Mudd, etc., but one of you mentioned this earlier - I know there must be great math programs out there that don't exactly have the name recognition of some of these other schools, and I don't know how to find them. 

Question 2:  Any ideas about what he can do to increase the chance of being accepted to a great math program between now (2nd semester Junior year) and next fall?  I've recently started looking at summer programs but he has a great summer job that he loves and is very good at, and he needs the money from it.  We would consider a summer program if it would really open up his world, but not JUST to pad a resume.

Thanks -

[bassoonchick]

Thanks havesometea - I wish I'd found Art of Problem Solving years ago - my middle son would have loved it!  I discovered it at the beginning of the summer when I had to find something for my youngest (incoming high school freshman) to use to learn algebra enough to be ready for the Honors Alg II class he placed into for freshman year - he really didn't have a handle on Algebra I yet.  I loved AoPS!  He is so ready now for Algebra II.  My middle son is a HS senior and is signed up for their WOOT class this year.  I know this forum is mostly about college, but boy is there a lot to say about the need to watch how your elementary/middle/high school students are being taught math.  I tell all of my friends with younger kids now to pay attention and find a way to supplement.  My older son had gotten through "honors Algebra I" in 7th grade with an "A".  It wasn't until the end of 8th grade geometry that I was doing some work with him and discovered he was missing some really basic and important concepts.  And this is in the school district that usually ranks highest in the state.  

And dale1 - I got your PM.  I will be picking your brain more!

Now I'm going to throuw another question out there for all.  Is it possible to go through a PhD program and actually get a good job teaching math these days?  Everything I read is doom and gloom - that it's impossible to get a tenure track job, or a job that pays enough to settle down and feel secure.  My dad was a prof and absolutely loved it - does that life still exist anymore?  My two older sons both want to do a pure math track and get a PhD in some kind of math and then teach.  Any advice, reassurance, or dire warnings you all can offer?

[daniel_von_flanagan]

Nobody knows what the market will be like in 9-10 years. - DvF

[oklatonola]

I've spent a great deal of time on Yahoo Answers  in the Science & Mathematics sections for more than three years. The problem being discussed here begins at a much earlier level than preparing undergraduates for  graduate degree programs.  APPARENTLY, no state Department of Education has a REQUIREMENT in place that students be taught HOW TO USE A COMPUTER, SPECIFICALLY, how to use a search engine. When I was in private school in New Orleans, it was a REQUIREMENT to teach students how to use the library in at least one elementary school English class, and a more advanced "how to use library resources" in a junior or senior high English class. Yahoo Answers is a DIGITAL community of knowledge sharing. I am CONSTANTLY shocked, although I'm getting a very thick emotional armor, that people have NO IDEA or understanding of HOW computers "work" or how computer networks "work." I've REPEATEDLY pointed out that NO LIVE PERSON is involved in reporting online abuse on YA UNTIL a violation of the Community Guidelines/user agreement is appealed, and some LIVE (some sarcasm) Yahoo employee in Customer Care reads the appeal, which is usually not successful.

This is a FUNDAMENTAL problem at the ELEMENTARY AND PRE-SCHOOL education level in the United States.

[daniel_von_flanagan]

USING a COMPUTER is a TRIVIALITY, and TIME in SCHOOL should NOT be WASTED ON IT.  EXCEPT MAYBE for HOW TO DETECT A STICKING CAPS-LOCK KEY. - DvF

[oklatonola]

[Off-topic post removed by moderator.]

[daniel_von_flanagan]

Actually, my mention of the caps-lock was simply to inform you of one of this forum's terms of service, which you have violated in at least two ways now.

If you want to report me, the way to do so is apparent to anyone who is computer-literate.  I believe you'll find that the reporting mechanism works very well, though there is some possibility that the outcome will be different from that which you anticipate.

Meanwhile, do revisit the first post in this thread to learn what the thread's topic is.  After that, if you have informed suggestions as to how to prepare students for PhD programs in the sciences, and not how to add time-wasting trivialities to elementary school requirements, this is the thread in which to do it. - DvF

[daniel_von_flanagan]

Are you suggesting that I prepare my undergraduate students for science grad school by spending time showing them how to type "Higgs Boson" into the Google? Any physics major that can't figure that out on their own belongs in a different major.  As for non-science majors (if such exist) who lack this deep and profound ability, they are not the subject of this thread.

By the way, quite close to the "post" button is a "spell check" button. - DvF