next »

[methodsman]

I probably could have been more clear, but I keep getting misunderstood.  They were talking about WORK--NOT IN THE BREAKROOM, but hunched over a computer in the central WORKING AREA of our office to which EVERYONE has access.  They can have a billion convos in a trillion languages anywhere else besides where other people have an opportunity to learn about THEIR WORK.

And, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, why all of concern about whether they are talking about you/me/him in their native language? mdwlark, you are like the 5th person to mention this. I COULD CARE LESS if they are talking about me.  This is not JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL.  But, we have a duty to create a productive work environment.  Posters' paranoid interpretation is precisely why I think most do not have any experience with this.  They naturally assume because someone is speaking another language they think they are talking about them.  This is always far from the truth, and frankly, is a very white American preoccupation.

[sibyl]

I am reluctant to wade into this zombie thread, but MM seems not to have let it go.

It seems to me that there is only one relevant point, MM: they don't want you to be in the conversation.  If they did, they'd speak English.  Your desire to explore issues relevant to the office and to enter into casual chatter with coworkers are commendable.  However, neither of these facts compels people to talk to other people if the first people don't want to talk to the second people.  I understand why you feel excluded, but you need to rise above that feeling.  I suspect that you do not currently feel excluded when other people around you have conversations without you in English; don't let yourself feel excluded just because similar conversations exist in non-English languages. 

If you want to engage these people in casual and/or work-related conversation, do so -- in English -- and you will be rewarded.  Good luck.

[normative_]

This is not JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL.

True. Your response is roughly Grade 3. I think that's when the last of the kids stop screaming.

But, we have a duty to create a productive work environment.

If they answer questions in English and do their jobs, there is no problem. At least emanating from them.

[methodsman]

This is my last post and then I'll let it go.  I don't feel excluded.  I believe that this is an unexamined or unproblematized condition of multi-lingual/cultural work settings.  I am not looking at this entirely out of my own interests.  My allegiance is both to inclusiveness as well as to organizational harmony and productivity.  These co-workers stand to lose by balkanizing their work effort and the office stands to lose as well.  Remember social capital and network theory?  I do intend on becoming an educational manager some day and I put this out there to see how others viewed it.  The responses were less than truly helpful, basically because most had no experience, were hindered by liberal bias and stock cultural relativity and were otherwise quick to criticize.

[mystictechgal]

You wanted to know how others view it.  You were answered.  People do not view it as a problem.  If you wish to continue to view it as a problem that's your prerogative, and your problem.

[bread_pirate_naan]

This is my last post and then I'll let it go.  I don't feel excluded.  I believe that this is an unexamined or unproblematized condition of multi-lingual/cultural work settings.  I am not looking at this entirely out of my own interests.  My allegiance is both to inclusiveness as well as to organizational harmony and productivity.  These co-workers stand to lose by balkanizing their work effort and the office stands to lose as well.  Remember social capital and network theory?  I do intend on becoming an educational manager some day and I put this out there to see how others viewed it.  The responses were less than truly helpful, basically because most had no experience, were hindered by liberal bias and stock cultural relativity and were otherwise quick to criticize.

You mean the part where you say that people never speak in other languages to talk about present people wasn't the stupidest assertion ever?  Or that others are always wrong when they think that.  I mean, I understand if the part about suggesting that is a misapprehension, (which it isn't), unique to "white people"  is dumber, but together -- UNBEATABLE! 

Recap:

They naturally assume because someone is speaking another language they think they are talking about them.  This is always far from the truth, and frankly, is a very white American preoccupation.

Ultra-racist, totalizing thought pretty much disqualifies you from all leadership positions.

[mdwlark]

I probably could have been more clear, but I keep getting misunderstood.  They were talking about WORK--NOT IN THE BREAKROOM, but hunched over a computer in the central WORKING AREA of our office to which EVERYONE has access.  They can have a billion convos in a trillion languages anywhere else besides where other people have an opportunity to learn about THEIR WORK.

There are many conversations at work about work that you and I don't need to be a part of.  It is their conversation, not yours, unless they invite you in.

[polly_mer]

Personally, when I am working in a shared space, but not currently interacting with the people physically next to me, I would rather have that extra layer of easiness to ignore.  If you are not involved in the current discussion and have no expectation of being involved, what difference does it make? 

In addition, I have worked in multilingual groups on very technical matters where often productivity was enhanced by having small groups of people work together in different languages that were chosen based on what information had to be conveyed in great detail and what languages the people who have to hammer out those details are most proficient in.  I'm not at all disturbed when my colleagues who have been educated in various places around the globe decide that it would be more efficient for them to discuss a technical matter in the shared language for which they know all the nuances of all of the words because that's the language in which their education was conducted instead of defaulting to a less precise language that is shared by the majority of the office.  Once they have all the details worked out, the big picture in standard formal English with the handful of technical terms that must be looked up through a technical translation service can be presented to everyone at the next group meeting.

Again, unless you are working with them at this moment, why is the language for a discussion in which you are not involved and have no expectation of becoming involved at a moment's notice any of your concern?

[marigolds]

Dude, wasn't the originary conversation like six months ago now?  I think it's probably time to let it go.  You seem to be getting really bent out of shape over something that, in the big scheme of things, seems to be relatively small potatoes.

[methodsman]

I thank polly_mer for hu's very thoughtful response and marigolds admonition.  I have made my peace with this issue and am now moving on...

[bread_pirate_naan]

I thank polly_mer for hu's very thoughtful response and marigolds admonition.  I have made my peace with this issue and am now moving on...

Pollymer's response ("in the shared language for which they know all the nuances of all of the words because that's the language in which their education was conducted") is so obvious as to go without saying.  Really, stay out of leadership.

[rear_view_mirror]

Is it wrong of me to have a problem with the fact that two staff members with whom I work speak to each other about work issues in their native (non-English) tongue in common areas?  It doesn't bother me when they chit-chat in their language (which I don't understand, by the way) in common areas, but when I hear English keywords being dropped in related to our office, I get annoyed.  I believe that this pushes some sort of boundary (e.g., cultural, professional, personal, or perhaps all of these), but before I say something to our supervisor, I'd like to see if anyone has any objective and reasoned opinions, expertise or experience with this issue.

Thanks,
MM

The only time it is not rude to speak in a language that is not the (or one of the) prevailing languages in the environment is when you are in a public place, and you don't know everyone there (like at a shopping mall).
Or if you don't know the language of the environment! Such is not the case. I sympathize with Methodsman.
If they're doing this in the office where you work while they are working for/with you, they should be asked to stop.
If they're just doing it in the lobby then you can't stop them. Good manners are a voluntary habit, and that is why they earn a special kind of respect.
It doesn't matter a bit to me whether they are talking about Methodsman, or not, nor whether he thinks they are, or not.