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Author Topic: Why does college cost so much?  (Read 7024 times)
der_gadfly
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oy vey


« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2009, 06:18:36 PM »

It is all well and good to note that there is much more technology, demand for more and better 'student services', dorm and food facilities, etc., than there was in 1980, but this does not explain why college costs have been rising so much more than inflation.  Many things are actually more affordable now, in real dollars, than they were in 1980, and college teachers' compensation is certainly not at a par with what it was, taken as a whole, in 1980.  So why is it that colleges are so much, ahem, less efficient in spending practices than almost any other 'industry'?

Just about every student survey I have seen from colleges in all sectors indicate that students complain MOST often about food, and then parking. We make better food services with more choices, and the complaints keep-a-coming. Same with parking: add more, and they still complain. It is a no-win, yet we continue to focus on this stuff.

it is not the actual cost of the goods and services, it is the lost-opportunity cost incurred as a result of onerous committee structures: too many people have a voice in which paper vendor to select.... I once had set up a preliminary annual paper budgeting plan that would have resulted in three years of savings of roughly 25% annually, but the various committees held it up so long that the vendor withdrew the offer.

Higher ed is a non-profit industry and so it doesn't have the same incentives for controlling costs that businesses do.  And because it has shared governance, it doesn't have the same structures that make cost-controlling easy.

Those readers who actually make it through to the real articles know that one of the articles talks precisely about accountability and about the need to improve accountability in the university.  But it seeks accountability mostly for faculty, and mostly at the program level: cut off academic programs that aren't directly tied to mission and/or that aren't working well.  Academia, as an industry, does this very badly.

The industry may be not-for-profit, but still, the institutions must maintain a balanced budget. You are correct that there is no simple solution: and also correct [sic] that there is no way that a powerful group (voice) with legal rights to support their entrenchment are going to sant to cede decision-making to others. We all want to keep what we have, and do not wish to have our own cart upset.

Accountability? Accreditors are mandating assessment. Yet, there are still strongholds of resistance. Whether or not one agrees with the new 'rules' one must still recognize that the rules have changed and that to continue the battle is a mere exercise in eventual extinction. So when an administrator is hired to manage assessment, and puts a system in place, there are complaints of useless administrative salaries and usurpation of faculty authority. This is just one example (and a sore spot for many). So please, talk to me more about accountability. It is simple: rules change, follow rules. Fail to follow rules, go away.
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ucprof
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« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2009, 07:32:26 AM »


There was a proposal at this school to set A/C temperatures at the school at 75 from its current 70.  Would have saved the school thousands of dollars but could not do it because government mandates temps set in building be 70.


This one I actually agree with.  Try keeping a fair amt of computer equipment in the room - the temp can quickly get up to 80.  Or if the sun hits the side of the building those offices on that side may get up to 80.  If you could guarantee each office would stay at precisely 75 it might work, just maybe.
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inthelab
Where beloved molecules abide
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Who knew?


WWW
« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2009, 08:27:29 AM »

Does anyone really think OL education will ever get to the point, for most fields, where the average OL graduate will be considered by grad schools, employers, etc., as equal to the average brick-and-mortar one?  Are there not numerous fields for which OL education is really not acceptable at all?

How will you teach experimental sciences, or any experiential field? 
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fizmath
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« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2009, 08:16:26 AM »

1) The link still does not allow access to the individual articles within the story, which is still a shame, sadly.

2) Does anyone really think OL education will ever get to the point, for most fields, where the average OL graduate will be considered by grad schools, employers, etc., as equal to the average brick-and-mortar one?  Are there not numerous fields for which OL education is really not acceptable at all?

3) What can be done to stop the spiralling amount of adminiscritters?  What about the spiralling amount of campus frills, etc.?

4) Is 'public higher education' really public anymore?  Do Americans really want public support for post-secondary ed?

 #2) I figure that can only happen once someone starts an OL school that is highly competitive and prestigious.  Stanford and Harvard worked together to start on online law program.  Not sure what happened with the program but that is one example.  I see the OL thing as still in its infancy.  In the near future it will be a nice option for a minority of students.

 #3) we are certain to see changes from the Great Recession.  People will be forced to shop for lower prices and thus, no more Ritz Carlton dormitories.
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sibyl
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« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2009, 04:17:19 PM »

Alright, then, defend yourself.  We have put a lot of facts in this thread.  What facts are you putting forth to defend your words?  Are you prepared to support a 229% increase in average revenue per student?  Are you prepared to show us how we're wrong about misaligned incentives?  These are facts - Where's the money going?  Why is quality suffering with such great revenues?  It seems to me if that 229% increase in revenue and all those great things being done by admins you cite are in fact supporting quality, then our graduates should be the best in the world instead of second-rate.  Why has American higher ed declined for 40 years while costs increase out of control?

I haven't been ducking the question; I've just been away.

You have not established a clear link between the figures you've cited and any measure of "quality."  I don't agree with your assertion that American higher education is second-rate, though I'd welcome any facts you'd care to provide in support of that.  But more to the point, I don't understand why you think that increases in revenue, or increases in cost for that matter, are related to quality.  I can't deny that revenues have increased, but how is that a bad thing? 

If you could name five things that would immediately improve the educational experience at any college or university, they would all be a function of increased costs, not lower ones -- smaller class sizes, improved labs and other facilities, more library resources, more funds for student research and student travel, more financial aid period.  Controlling costs is an essential goal in for-profit businesses, but not in not-for-profits.  (Controlling costs isn't a bad thing at non-profits, but the incentives and structures to control costs aren't there.)

Game Theorists can demonstrate that such a dispute with rules of "compromise" strongly favors the wrong party, since wrong parties have nothing to lose by defending themselves, and stand only to gain when compromises are made.  "Right" parties are forced to win every single skirmish in order to preserve what is right, since any losses result in an incremental weakening of their position over time.

Game theory also differentiates between zero-sum (or constant-sum, or strictly competitive) games and non-zero-sum games.  You seem to think that solving the cost puzzle is a zero-sum game: either administrators are at fault, or faculty are at fault; as a consequence, you think that if I defend administrators I must be attacking faculty.  I think that solving the cost puzzle is a non-zero-sum game.  There are too many participants in the game -- students, parents, employers, publishers of college guides, faculty, administrators, state government, federal government -- to treat it as zero-sum.  Solutions have to be found by faculty and administrators working together; that's the only way to ensure that they are successful, sustainable, and meaningful. 

I have no doubt that you have encountered incompetent and/or malevolent administrators in your life.  I have too.  But their existence does not justify painting every administrator as a greedy tin-eared thug.  (You seem to have had no problem with the converse lesson; you say that you have known good administrators, but you haven't fallen into the trap of saying that all administrators are good.)  Nor does it lead to a solution. 

It's certainly simple to think that administrators are the problem and that if we could just get rid of them life would be much easier.  The problem is that the last time we had no administrators it was the 19th century.  No libraries (except a collection of books donated by students), no cafeterias or dorms (students lived in local homes), no student activities staff, no development staff to solicit donations, no payroll staff to make sure that taxes are collected and checks issued promptly, no one monitoring safety in radiation labs, no health benefits, much lower salaries, and the occasional inability of the college to collect enough money to make payroll.

You cite data about the changes in revenue from 1980 to 2001.  (By the way, would you please provide a more specific citation?  There are so many data flying out of the DOE that it's hard to tell them apart.)  I think this timeframe is flawed because it misses the more important changes from 1945 to 1980, when revenues soared because of huge increases in public funding.  In real terms the price to students declined substantially, at least into the 1960s and possibly beyond, because of public funding.  In general terms, a year at college has historically been closely tied to the annual median family income.  Between 1945 and 1980 that price was significantly depressed because of public subsidies.  (I don't have specific stats handy but I will try to update in the next day or so.)

For my part, I'm not ready to accept the notion that faculty either share an equal portion of the fault or play a major role in this problem.  

I never said, or meant to imply, that faculty share an "equal portion", but they are indeed involved in cost drivers.  Let me demonstrate by way of the first number I can actually lay hands on.  According to the 2008-09 AAUP Report on the Economic Status of the Profession, average compensation for faculty increased 256% in nominal dollars between 1980 and 2001.  Personally, I think that's a good thing, and I'll defend that rate of increase to anyone; if anything, I wish it were higher.  But I haven't noticed much movement among the faculty to say, "Please lower our salaries so that we can keep costs down for students."  And of course I don't expect or even want them to do so.  None of us is going to solve the puzzle if we say "this is not my problem, it's your problem, so fix it."  The problem belongs to all of us.

BTW, you talk about accountability and quality for faculty - are you suggesting that faculty aren't holding each other accountable in the tenure and promotion process, and somebody else would do it better?  

Nothing of the kind.  I was referring to one of the actual articles in the roundup, the one by Charles Miller, who encourages academia to work harder at evaluating programs (not individuals), their costs, and their connection to mission.  Miller criticizes what he calls the "revenue model," which is, I think, a similar complaint to yours:  institutions try to get all the money they can, and spend all they get.  If they were to evaluate programs more closely, and eliminate those that aren't central to the institution, they could control costs better.  This idea was echoed in another article, by J. Douglas Toma, who points out that institutions tend to compete by trying to emulate high-quality programs rather than on other factors (he doesn't use these examples, but these factors might include efficiency and cost). 

I am sorry the mods have not made it a free link.  Maybe if they had, we could talk about these issues rather than thrashing around old bugaboos. 
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"I do not pretend to set people right, but I do see that they are often wrong." -- Jane Austen, Mansfield Park
mad_doctor
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« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2009, 07:13:45 PM »

Don't worry about it, sibyl.  I'm glad you posted this, because I've been changing my thinking about things in the interim.  After watching how contentiously things are debated on the fora, I now believe that we need another way to talk about such things.  I will therefore respond to you with Limericks...

On the relationship between revenues and quality:

Revenues affect quality, it's true
if it's to instruction they're due.
But when the admins
put it all in their bins,
it's the quality of learning that's blue
 

On the second-rate status of American graduates:

If our system does in fact acclaim us
Then our students have no need to blame us.
If they can compete
with their peers on the street,
Why do other countries shame us?


On Game Theory:

The theorists say it's a game
when admins and profs inflame.
Compromise implied
that you're on the wrong side,
so the admins make the profs more tame.


On professors' salaries in nominal dollars:

Its true that our wages are twofold
than they were before time unrolled.
You see, a nominal dollar
makes people hollar,
unless the prices are two decades old.





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lotsoquestions
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« Reply #51 on: October 07, 2009, 06:42:48 AM »

Our neighbors just got back from visiting colleges with their daughter.  Daughter, a member of the cheerleading squad, announced when she got to the first campus that the buildings "smelled musty" and that she wouldn't be going anywhere where the buildings looked old.  The parents thought this was adorable.  ("she's a high-class girl with high class tastes.")  And we wonder why college costs so much? 

(And yes, I politely suggested that she might want to think about what she wants to study and what school might have the best program -- but it was all 'who has the best pizza' and 'who has the shiniest buildings' and so forth.  And I suspect that this child is in no way unique.  It's only an anecdote, but nonetheless it frightened me to think that this might be typical . . )
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aandsdean
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« Reply #52 on: October 07, 2009, 08:37:14 AM »

Our neighbors just got back from visiting colleges with their daughter.  Daughter, a member of the cheerleading squad, announced when she got to the first campus that the buildings "smelled musty" and that she wouldn't be going anywhere where the buildings looked old.  The parents thought this was adorable.  ("she's a high-class girl with high class tastes.")  And we wonder why college costs so much? 

(And yes, I politely suggested that she might want to think about what she wants to study and what school might have the best program -- but it was all 'who has the best pizza' and 'who has the shiniest buildings' and so forth.  And I suspect that this child is in no way unique.  It's only an anecdote, but nonetheless it frightened me to think that this might be typical . . )

I think it is typical.

I started college in 1981.  I went to what was then, and still is, a US News top-10 SLAC.  When I went there, the residence halls were, while perfectly fine, also thoroughly utilitarian.  Except for a few suites and the suite-doubles in the foreign-language dorm, the bathrooms were all in the halls.  They weren't carpeted except for the foreign language dorm.  There was no A/C (this in a hot climate) except in the foreign language dorm.  Students FLOCKED to the place and enjoyed living there.  I was one of the very very few people who brought a TV to school with me.  No more than three people in my freshman class brought a computer with them (they were still a real novelty at that point).

Fast forward to 2000.  I start my new job at an upper-mid-tier small master's university in the South.  During my five years there, we spent tens of millions of dollars on beautiful new residence halls and apartments (truly, like nice hotels) to compete for students, even though, demographically, our students were nowhere near like my undergrad colleagues.

Fast forward to 2005.  I move to a small, private master's university on the plains.  We spend $33 million dollars on a new residence hall with about 300 beds.  All suites.  All bathrooms in suites (1 per 2 beds).  Kitchenettes in suites.  Leather furniture.  Big-screen TV lounges.  Gamerooms with really nice games.  Gym.   Again, demographically, students nowhere near like my undergrad colleagues.

This stuff is a real cost.  Add to it ADA expenses, computer labs, the entire budget, pretty much, of the IT department, a cadre of counselors, rising costs of health insurance, compliance costs (we probably spend close to half a million dollars on HLC-related expenses, including assessment), and this all adds up to some serious escalation.

I'm not sure what to do about it, but I assure you, I am no more overpaid than faculty are.  It's not me who's getting rich on this budgetary growth.
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mad_doctor
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« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2009, 09:01:02 AM »

I'm having difficulty understanding you two.  This is a difficult issue, and you're not speaking in Limericks.


True that, it's typical for schools to pamper
their students to thinking they're campers.
But if the money they spend
on the pampering trend
went to instruction they'd all surely scamper.
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mad_doctor
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« Reply #54 on: October 07, 2009, 09:23:20 AM »

Strange, I thought I just posted this.  There's more, folks...

Like compromise, recruiting's a game
since following their peers is the aim.
If one school won't play
the others will say,
your students we'll surely reclaim.

Hoo hoo, Hee hee,  they're magically delicious...
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notaprof
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« Reply #55 on: October 07, 2009, 09:35:59 AM »

I am posting on behalf of the limerick thread who feels threatened by the recent trend of limericks popping up on other threads.  It was bad enough when half of the bible was translated into limerick form a few days back but a third thread of limericks is going to be confusing to other posters.  Please refrain from limerick globalization here on the fora.  If you feel you must limerickize a thread, please insert a "_" between each line of the limerick so we can keep the confusion to a minimum.

The Limerick Thread - maintaining a monopoly since 7-11-07 - 5360 posts and 216551 views strong.   
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I am sick and tired of following my dreams.  I think I'll just ask them where they are going and catch up with them later.  Mitch Hedberg
aandsdean
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« Reply #56 on: October 07, 2009, 09:39:23 AM »

I am posting on behalf of the limerick thread who feels threatened by the recent trend of limericks popping up on other threads.  It was bad enough when half of the bible was translated into limerick form a few days back but a third thread of limericks is going to be confusing to other posters.  Please refrain from limerick globalization here on the fora.  If you feel you must limerickize a thread, please insert a "_" between each line of the limerick so we can keep the confusion to a minimum.

The Limerick Thread - maintaining a monopoly since 7-11-07 - 5360 posts and 216551 views strong.   

The Limerick cops now have arrived,
Killing the fun we've derived,
From this thread on our cost,
Whose containment we've lost,
And on which issue we've jived.
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notaprof
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« Reply #57 on: October 07, 2009, 09:50:51 AM »

I am posting on behalf of the limerick thread who feels threatened by the recent trend of limericks popping up on other threads.  It was bad enough when half of the bible was translated into limerick form a few days back but a third thread of limericks is going to be confusing to other posters.  Please refrain from limerick globalization here on the fora.  If you feel you must limerickize a thread, please insert a "_" between each line of the limerick so we can keep the confusion to a minimum.

The Limerick Thread - maintaining a monopoly since 7-11-07 - 5360 posts and 216551 views strong.   

The Limerick cops now have arrived,
_
Killing the fun we've derived,
_
From this thread on our cost,
_
Whose containment we've lost,
_
And on which issue we've jived.

Hey a&sdeandude,
I just made the required corrections to your post.
Limrickization is spreading faster than swine flu!
Notacop, justaspoilsport.
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I am sick and tired of following my dreams.  I think I'll just ask them where they are going and catch up with them later.  Mitch Hedberg
mad_doctor
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« Reply #58 on: October 07, 2009, 12:35:38 PM »

So, he's upset because our rhymes
on other threads become crimes.
Maybe I'll stop,
so his head doesn't pop,
or perhaps just a few more times?
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temporaryname
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« Reply #59 on: October 07, 2009, 12:50:36 PM »

I do not feel I can compete with you,
O honored lim'rick thread. And so I'd fain
Attempt some change of form that we anew
May post some lines, rhymed verse--ah yes! Quatrain!
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