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[frogfactory]

Well, I'm sure I taking this too seriously, but I object to the terms "homophobe" and "hater."

"Homophobe": One doesn't have to be afraid of LGBT etc. people, in order to disagree with their lifestyle choices.

"Hater": Disagreement does not equal hate.

The words "homophobe" and "hater" highten the division, because they make assumptions people on the other side do not necessarily hold.

Thank you for bringing this thread into trainwreck territory! 

'Phobia' and the suffix 'phobe' refer to either a fear or an aversion to [prefix].  Did anyone ever suggest that xenophobia was a fear of foreigners?

[onion]

Well, I'm sure I taking this too seriously, but I object to the terms "homophobe" and "hater."

"Homophobe": One doesn't have to be afraid of LGBT etc. people, in order to disagree with their lifestyle choices.

"Hater": Disagreement does not equal hate.

The words "homophobe" and "hater" highten the division, because they make assumptions people on the other side do not necessarily hold.

Thank you for bringing this thread into trainwreck territory! 

'Phobia' and the suffix 'phobe' refer to either a fear or an aversion to [prefix].  Did anyone ever suggest that xenophobia was a fear of foreigners?

Duh, frogfactory.  A "xenophobe" disagrees with the lifestyles of foreigners.  ;D

[larryc]

"Homophobe": One doesn't have to be afraid of LGBT etc. people, in order to disagree with their lifestyle choices.

No, but someone has to be pretty deeply bigoted to refer to a person's sexual orientation as a "lifestyle choice."

[systeme_d_]

"Homophobe": One doesn't have to be afraid of LGBT etc. people, in order to disagree with their lifestyle choices.

No, but someone has to be pretty deeply bigoted to refer to a person's sexual orientation as a "lifestyle choice."

Thanks for saying exactly what I was thinking, LarryC.

[promovenda]

Well, I'm sure I taking this too seriously, but I object to the terms "homophobe" and "hater."

"Homophobe": One doesn't have to be afraid of LGBT etc. people, in order to disagree with their lifestyle choices.

"Hater": Disagreement does not equal hate.

The words "homophobe" and "hater" highten the division, because they make assumptions people on the other side do not necessarily hold.

Thank you for bringing this thread into trainwreck territory! 

'Phobia' and the suffix 'phobe' refer to either a fear or an aversion to [prefix].  Did anyone ever suggest that xenophobia was a fear of foreigners?

If expressing one's right to honest disagreement, in a calm and civilized way, is "train wreck territory," then, you are very welcome.

My point is (for those who have missed it) is that I am neither afraid of LGBT people, nor do I hate them. However, I disagree with them.

[promovenda]

"Homophobe": One doesn't have to be afraid of LGBT etc. people, in order to disagree with their lifestyle choices.

No, but someone has to be pretty deeply bigoted to refer to a person's sexual orientation as a "lifestyle choice."

Both sexual activity and celibacy are lifestyle choices. As is surgical transformation. I am not bigoted, I just do not agree, as you are free not to agree with me.

[onion]

Well, I'm sure I taking this too seriously, but I object to the terms "homophobe" and "hater."

"Homophobe": One doesn't have to be afraid of LGBT etc. people, in order to disagree with their lifestyle choices.

"Hater": Disagreement does not equal hate.

The words "homophobe" and "hater" highten the division, because they make assumptions people on the other side do not necessarily hold.

Thank you for bringing this thread into trainwreck territory! 

'Phobia' and the suffix 'phobe' refer to either a fear or an aversion to [prefix].  Did anyone ever suggest that xenophobia was a fear of foreigners?

If expressing one's right to honest disagreement, in a calm and civilized way, is "train wreck territory," then, you are very welcome.

My point is (for those who have missed it) is that I am neither afraid of LGBT people, nor do I hate them. However, I disagree with them.

If you "disagree" with my "lifestyle choice", or that of my students who are LGBT and have sought out a student group to mix and mingle with like minded people, then you do not belong at the meetings of LGBT people, who are not there to debate the merits of their "choices."  LGBT groups are not places for people who do not agree with gay people to "express their right to honest disagreement."  Just like a member of the Klan shouldn't get near the college NAACP chapter.  These are not places to hash out the issues--especially among college students who may be most interested in joining affinity groups that are safe spaces for them.  When I was the LGBT student group advisor, we had to be very careful about advertising our meetings because creeps from the campus and surrounding community would show up to voice their disagreement by shouting bible verses or hurling epithets at the students.  This is not acceptable.  And the "disagreers" won, because we had to go underground, in a sense, and our meeting times and places spread by word of mouth, and I imagine a lot of students who needed us could not find us.

And I can't help but feel pissed off every time some a-hole pops up on these fora and announces that my sexual orientation is a choice and that they don't agree with it.  Know what?  I don't agree with the "choice" to be heterosexual.  I think heterosexuals who've never thought long and hard about their sexuality are weird. And because I feel this way, I know that there a lot of groups I would not be welcome at and a number of conversations I should avoid. 

So take the hating elsewhere.  This thread was started by an LGBT person who was asking an innocent question about how to list something on their CV.  Now I'm starting to think that the OP should be more circumspect about listing that on their CV because people like you might read it and adversely affect their job prospects.  Perhaps this thread has been instructive, even though it was derailed with a totally unnecessary detour into your holier-than-thou bigoted crap.  Do you have any clue what it's like to be gay, even though the supposedly friendly Obama administration is in power?  I'm so sick of this, and it saddens me that my students might encounter someone who is going to challenge their "choice" (and it's not a friggin' choice, like which shirt I'll wear today, for pete's sake) and make them feel bad about themselves. 

But you have convinced me that I do need to go to the National Equality March in DC next month.  There are a lot of people like you out there; go sit around and agree with them about how gross my lifestyle is.  Thanks.

[tuxedo_cat]

"Homophobe": One doesn't have to be afraid of LGBT etc. people, in order to disagree with their lifestyle choices.

No, but someone has to be pretty deeply bigoted to refer to a person's sexual orientation as a "lifestyle choice."

Both sexual activity and celibacy are lifestyle choices. As is surgical transformation. I am not bigoted, I just do not agree, as you are free not to agree with me.

Dude, don't you live in the Netherlands (aka, the first country to grant legal recognition to same-sex couples)?  Maybe it's the fact that you've been deprived of the Jerry Springer show all these years, so you haven't learned yet that there is a regular percentage of folks who, at the biological level, simply do not fit neatly into our rigid categories of sexual identity.  Really, anybody who is willing to undergo surgery simply to be at peace with who they are is not making a "lifestyle choice."

[helpful]

Promovenda is mixing up action with identity. One's sexual identity is what it is, it is not a choice.

On edit, hear, hear for Larry C and Onion and Tuxedo Cat. These would be great texts for a diversity class I am teaching.

[helpful]

But don't get me started on "two spirited."  Or, Tuxedo Cat, I could get started on "two spirited" and if there's a two-spirited identified individual on here, we could have a forum cage-match, just to uphold the spirit of the Diversity board.  ;D

In North American Indian communities, 'two-spirited' is the term used for gay/lesbians. There is some controversy about whether it is historically rooted, though. Some say what it meant was asexual orientation; others say bisexual. But that is the term that is used, in any case.

[onion]

But don't get me started on "two spirited."  Or, Tuxedo Cat, I could get started on "two spirited" and if there's a two-spirited identified individual on here, we could have a forum cage-match, just to uphold the spirit of the Diversity board.  ;D

In North American Indian communities, 'two-spirited' is the term used for gay/lesbians. There is some controversy about whether it is historically rooted, though. Some say what it meant was asexual orientation; others say bisexual. But that is the term that is used, in any case.

Thanks for the clarification, Helpful.  I've encountered a very different description/definition; this makes more sense.

[helpful]

But don't get me started on "two spirited."  Or, Tuxedo Cat, I could get started on "two spirited" and if there's a two-spirited identified individual on here, we could have a forum cage-match, just to uphold the spirit of the Diversity board.  ;D

In North American Indian communities, 'two-spirited' is the term used for gay/lesbians. There is some controversy about whether it is historically rooted, though. Some say what it meant was asexual orientation; others say bisexual. But that is the term that is used, in any case.

Thanks for the clarification, Helpful.  I've encountered a very different description/definition; this makes more sense.

From wikipedia: "The term "two-spirit" usually implies a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit living in the same body "

[kedves]

Both sexual activity and celibacy are lifestyle choices. As is surgical transformation. I am not bigoted, I just do not agree, as you are free not to agree with me.

I've never understood this use of the word "agree" in the context above.  What does it mean?  Agree with what?

"I do not agree with your judgment about who's hot"?
"I do not agree with your assessment of who is a good sexual partner"?
"I do not agree with your ideas of a good time during sex"?
"I do not agree that you are normal"?
"I do not agree that you should be allowed by law or custom to be open about who you are"?
"I do not agree that you are the best one to decide what gender and sexual identity is right for you"?
"I do not agree that your sexual identity and activity are none of my business"?
"I do not agree that you should have the same rights as people who aren't like you"?

There are probably alternatives to these interpretations that elude me.  But if you don't explain your meaning, other people have to guess at it.

[bibliothecula]

Onion is my new hero. You go, onion!

[tuxedo_cat]

But don't get me started on "two spirited."  Or, Tuxedo Cat, I could get started on "two spirited" and if there's a two-spirited identified individual on here, we could have a forum cage-match, just to uphold the spirit of the Diversity board.  ;D

In North American Indian communities, 'two-spirited' is the term used for gay/lesbians. There is some controversy about whether it is historically rooted, though. Some say what it meant was asexual orientation; others say bisexual. But that is the term that is used, in any case.

Thanks for the clarification, Helpful.  I've encountered a very different description/definition; this makes more sense.

From wikipedia: "The term "two-spirit" usually implies a masculine spirit and a feminine spirit living in the same body "

I'm expecting that someone will jump in here with more accurate information / terminology, but I have to say, one of the most heartening accounts of how other cultures treat "queerness" focuses on Navajo culture.  If I'm remembering correctly, children are allowed a broad range of gender identifications as they mature, and if a young boy wishes to participate in conventionally female activities, he is allowed to do so, including being allowed to dress in female clothing.  If as an adult he wishes to marry someone male, this is permitted and not regarded as a problem.  I'm not sure if the same is quite true for young girls.  The term that has traditionally been used by anthropologists to identify such individuals -- berdache -- isn't the best term, since it's French, and it's derogatory.  And it sounds like "two-spirited" is a newer term of identification that has arisen in response to such problems.

But what I found particularly interesting is that such individuals might also attain a place of higher status within their communities, since they were not perceived of as flawed or defective, but rather blessed with a more comprehensive understanding of human experience because they had sympathies with both male and female.  I've always found that a very moving account of cultural response to unconventional gender identity, an instructive counter-example to how queers are so often stigmatized, shamed and physically violated in other cultures.