next »

[namazu]

All I wish to add is that many students are indeed unsure about such matters, and simply clarifying one's preferences is a good thing.

Bingo! As I tell my students whenever the question of titles arises, they should never be embarrassed to ask their instructors "What do you prefer to be called?"

I concur.  (Though this doesn't solve the problem of how to respond when you've clarified your preferences and the students still call you something other than what you prefer, which seems to be a persistent source of annoyance for some posters.)

Meanwhile, Polly, you need only look to the Japanese, who have pretty much cornered the market on "honorifics".  You can use "-san" as a generic, gender-neutral term of respectful address.  (Beyond that, it gets more difficult and nuanced.)  I submit that this would be a good term to borrow...   What do you say, Mer-san?

[unspoiled]

All I wish to add is that many students are indeed unsure about such matters, and simply clarifying one's preferences is a good thing.

Bingo! As I tell my students whenever the question of titles arises, they should never be embarrassed to ask their instructors "What do you prefer to be called?"

I concur.  (Though this doesn't solve the problem of how to respond when you've clarified your preferences and the students still call you something other than what you prefer, which seems to be a persistent source of annoyance for some posters.)

Tell me about that, Namazu.  My last name is foreign and difficult to pronounce (kept my maiden name).  I can't hyphen because both my father's and my husband's last names contain too many letters and I can't fit in a window envelope, on a utility bill, in one breath etc.  And If I dislike something, that's hearing my father's last name being butchered constantly. 

So last time I taught I asked the students as nicely as possible to call me Instructor Last Name if they honestly thought they could handle it (after careful tutoring), or Instructor (period), or First Name (period).  I told them I don't mind First Name, but I do mind the massacre of Last Name, and that I do mind Dr. and Professor because I don't have my PhD degree yet and don't want to mislead anyone. 

How do I get called all semester long?  Professor, period.  Except for one sweet student who kept calling me First Name.  Bless her heart. 

[tattletale_heart]

Why does Ma'am make me feel old and like someone who manages a house of ill repute?  (Why do I hear the "d", and the different meanings, when it isn't there?)

I constantly try to dissuade my first-year students from using "Miss" (no last name).  I don't know why that gets under my skin more than any other title.

I remember being interviewed by a French-speaking lawyer I didn't like very much.  He welcomed me as Mrs. Heart.  I corrected him (I am not married) and said he could call me Professor or Ms. Heart, which seemed to cause a lot of confusion.  He kept calling me Mrs., I kept interrupting and saying "Ms."  A colleague finally interrupted us both and explained that they don't seem to have "Ms." or its equivalent in francophone Quebec.  It turns out the lawyer thought I was insulting him or making fun of his lisp whenever I would shout back "Ms! Ms!" 

[vogue]

Thank goodness for this thread.  I just got my PhD and still feel a little tentative about insisting that my students call me "Doctor," even though I slogged through six years to get the title.  But I just got an email from a guy that began "Hey Firstname," as if we were best buds, and remembered that darn it, I have a right to be called what I wish.

I replied with, "Hi [student], please do not address me as [Firstname].  I am your teacher.  In future, please call me Dr. [Lastname]."  Why did it always seem so freaking complicated before?!

[chemxtree]

And more flame-bait on this since i'm speakin for my wife in thinking that she would fully agree with polly_mer in the discussion over the last 4-5pgs. We've been together as a couple for > 2/3 of our lives and nearly 1/2 married... neither one of us would ever not want to acknowledge our 'marital status'. period. A job interviewer, heaven forbid, asks one of us if we're married and we're not gonna skirt the question but rather gladly share.

What prefix do you use before your own name to acknowledge your marital status?

Great question kedves, was it meant to be a jibe? Either way unfortunately there is no such prefix for men... a shame really because there are lots of great men around that are proud of the status and don't want be considered just a Mr. or Dr. (almost like just a bachelor and the connotation implied).

And what exactly is "the connotation implied"?

I would be very, very careful how I answered this question if I were you.

VP

Hmmm... i guess if you google 'bachelor' you first get ABC's The Bachelor - guys trying to find love out of 6-12wks of dating up to 25 women at a time... no thanks. A little lower on the google is the wikipage for bachelor - goes through the history of the uses of the term bachelor... none of which have applied to me for 20+ yrs if at all. Does that clarify?

No. There is an implied value judgment in your statement: married people are more valuable and of higher status than single people. "Just" a bachelor. Your post indicates that you perceive that your status is so enhanced by being married that you wish there were a special "I am married!" honorific for men, just so everyone knows you are proud of this high-status achievement.

VP

no intention of value judgement here. from your own replies it seems you might have something against marriage or take issue with someone enthusiastic about being married. If that's not the case, then why the repeated challenges in your previous replies. I really could careless if there were some indicative term for married folks, men or women.

From this thread I tend to see mostly polly's points though. I'd go for Comrade/Friend XTree or even XTree-san just as I would for Prof/Dr XTree (the terms I choose in professional settings). Otherwise I don't think there really is a reasonable solution to avoid the imbalance between the male general honorific Mr. and the female honorifics at issue in this discussion Miss/Ms./Mrs.

I also think one has to consider the context of the conversations in which titles or lack thereof are being used. Someone pointed out upthread about folks that will simply ignore etiquette or even gentle nudging or clarification from the addressee. I think they discussed the William but call me Bill not Will or Willie or Billy.

I have the same issue with my Firstname + Middlename + Lastname. If I say my name is: Chem-X, then folks call me Chem and take the -X as my lastname. I then restate on followup as Chem-X Tree... which invariably leads to the question "Can I/we just call you..." or "Does anyone call you CX?" I promptly answer no its that I was only ever called CX by grandparents and elder relatives when I was < 6yo. Then they're dumbfounded when I say my fullname is Chem-X Family Tree or Chem-X F. Tree or ChemXTree with Chem-X at minimum.

[chemxtree]

Thank goodness for this thread.  I just got my PhD and still feel a little tentative about insisting that my students call me "Doctor," even though I slogged through six years to get the title.  But I just got an email from a guy that began "Hey Firstname," as if we were best buds, and remembered that darn it, I have a right to be called what I wish.

I replied with, "Hi [student], please do not address me as [Firstname].  I am your teacher.  In future, please call me Dr. [Lastname]."  Why did it always seem so freaking complicated before?!

I and others mentioned upthread that it is possible for this to be addressed before the students arrived in your classroom, but it just doesn't happen as a standard. Sounds like you took care of it as most folks recommended.

It reminded what I was thinkin about this weekend with some younger in-laws that are just starting their college days. I can now call, with some effort mentally, my phd advisor and undergrad advisor by their firstnames. However other professors and/or mentors i've had over the years I think I would STILL address as Dr. or Prof. XYZ. For better or worse it's ingrained in my head as the correct/proper deferential.

[madhatter]

Thank goodness for this thread.  I just got my PhD and still feel a little tentative about insisting that my students call me "Doctor," even though I slogged through six years to get the title.  But I just got an email from a guy that began "Hey Firstname," as if we were best buds, and remembered that darn it, I have a right to be called what I wish.

I replied with, "Hi [student], please do not address me as [Firstname].  I am your teacher.  In future, please call me Dr. [Lastname]."  Why did it always seem so freaking complicated before?!

This is not the sort of thing I let ruffle my feathers. One of my fondest memories is of a voicemail a struggling student left for me. It began, "Hello, Doctor Hatter. <pause> <exasperated sigh> <patronizingly> Maaaaad..."

That still makes me chuckle.

[voxprincipalis]

And more flame-bait on this since i'm speakin for my wife in thinking that she would fully agree with polly_mer in the discussion over the last 4-5pgs. We've been together as a couple for > 2/3 of our lives and nearly 1/2 married... neither one of us would ever not want to acknowledge our 'marital status'. period. A job interviewer, heaven forbid, asks one of us if we're married and we're not gonna skirt the question but rather gladly share.

What prefix do you use before your own name to acknowledge your marital status?

Great question kedves, was it meant to be a jibe? Either way unfortunately there is no such prefix for men... a shame really because there are lots of great men around that are proud of the status and don't want be considered just a Mr. or Dr. (almost like just a bachelor and the connotation implied).

And what exactly is "the connotation implied"?

I would be very, very careful how I answered this question if I were you.

VP

Hmmm... i guess if you google 'bachelor' you first get ABC's The Bachelor - guys trying to find love out of 6-12wks of dating up to 25 women at a time... no thanks. A little lower on the google is the wikipage for bachelor - goes through the history of the uses of the term bachelor... none of which have applied to me for 20+ yrs if at all. Does that clarify?

No. There is an implied value judgment in your statement: married people are more valuable and of higher status than single people. "Just" a bachelor. Your post indicates that you perceive that your status is so enhanced by being married that you wish there were a special "I am married!" honorific for men, just so everyone knows you are proud of this high-status achievement.

VP

no intention of value judgement here. from your own replies it seems you might have something against marriage or take issue with someone enthusiastic about being married. If that's not the case, then why the repeated challenges in your previous replies. I really could careless if there were some indicative term for married folks, men or women.

Wow, that is one of the most stunning examples of failure to read that I have yet encountered on the fora.

"Whoosh" does not even begin to describe it.

VP

[chemxtree]

And more flame-bait on this since i'm speakin for my wife in thinking that she would fully agree with polly_mer in the discussion over the last 4-5pgs. We've been together as a couple for > 2/3 of our lives and nearly 1/2 married... neither one of us would ever not want to acknowledge our 'marital status'. period. A job interviewer, heaven forbid, asks one of us if we're married and we're not gonna skirt the question but rather gladly share.

What prefix do you use before your own name to acknowledge your marital status?

Great question kedves, was it meant to be a jibe? Either way unfortunately there is no such prefix for men... a shame really because there are lots of great men around that are proud of the status and don't want be considered just a Mr. or Dr. (almost like just a bachelor and the connotation implied).

And what exactly is "the connotation implied"?

I would be very, very careful how I answered this question if I were you.

VP

Hmmm... i guess if you google 'bachelor' you first get ABC's The Bachelor - guys trying to find love out of 6-12wks of dating up to 25 women at a time... no thanks. A little lower on the google is the wikipage for bachelor - goes through the history of the uses of the term bachelor... none of which have applied to me for 20+ yrs if at all. Does that clarify?

No. There is an implied value judgment in your statement: married people are more valuable and of higher status than single people. "Just" a bachelor. Your post indicates that you perceive that your status is so enhanced by being married that you wish there were a special "I am married!" honorific for men, just so everyone knows you are proud of this high-status achievement.

VP

no intention of value judgement here. from your own replies it seems you might have something against marriage or take issue with someone enthusiastic about being married. If that's not the case, then why the repeated challenges in your previous replies. I really could careless if there were some indicative term for married folks, men or women.

Wow, that is one of the most stunning examples of failure to read that I have yet encountered on the fora.

"Whoosh" does not even begin to describe it.

VP

VP, if you're not challenging then I ask again why the repeated challenges???

You're reply here certainly doesn't make me think otherwise... talk about WHOOOOSH!

If that's not you're intent then we'll drop it and go on with our Fora-existence... I've trolled around here for a long time and know that you carry some weight so don't think I'm not aware of this... hence my sense you're tryin to put me in my place. Whatever, whatever, whatever... W!

*washes hands and walks away...*

[arpodah]

   I was born and bred in a southeastern state.  I have had a doctorate for fourteen years.  I have been educated in and taught at only southeastern universities.  Students have addressed me as Doctor, Professor, and occasionally Mister LastName.  The ones with whom I have great familiarity over a few years just call me "Doc". This address, directed toward male and female faculty, seems to be used mainly by juniors and seniors who have earned the respect of faculty members in the department of their major field of study over a few years; I've rarely heard freshmen students address their professors as "Doc".

   On my syllabi, I write FirstName LastName and usually introduce myself as such to my class on the first day of the semester.  Students have not addressed me by my first name since I was a graduate student.  On the rare occasion that students call me Mister, I take no offense because, as I see it, that address still implies respect for my position of authority, no less than Doctor.  I have had a few students ask me, "Do I call you Dr. or Mr.?", and I usually reply that, even though I have a doctorate, either address is fine as long as I am addressed with respect.  I try not to get too obsessed about my title because I know what I've got and what I had to go through to get it; it cannot be taken from me.  Maybe my tendency to de-emphasize my title may be my way of trying to make sure that people respect me for who I am and my abilities and not because I have a doctorate.  Nevertheless, I worked hard for the doctorate and am proud of it.
 
   Some female faculty might feel that male faculty couldn't possibly relate to the efforts women must expend to get respect in academia.  But as an African-American male professor, I have come to learn that there was an earlier time when an American black adult male had to fight for being addressed as "Mister" and "Sir", let alone "Doctor" if he were fortunate enough to achieve that level of education.  My point is that we all struggle to earn respect and that most of us have some handicap that hinders gaining respect.  Race and gender are two clear handicaps, but I'm certain that there are other handicaps that affect both men and women. 

   I must agree with some previous posters on two points: (1) that there may be a regional or more broadly cultural aspect, though not the only aspect, for how youth shows respect for older women or women of authority, and (2) that the insistence of professors that such youth growing up in a modern age "should know better" than to use expressions such as Miss, Mrs., or Ma'am to female professors with doctorates will result only in the continued frustration of these professors.  I would discourage any professor, male or female, from throwing verbal "zingers" to embarrass or humiliate students into behavioral modification; that may only alienate the student and create fear of or comtempt toward that professor and perhaps all other professors of the same type (female, black, Muslim, etc.).  A polite, but firm, brief statement about how one prefers to be addressed should suffice.  A professor should not assume that a student using outdated forms of address to female authority figures is being direspectful, and professors referring to such "old-fashioned" students as clueless, ignorant, or backward behinds their backs helps nothing either.

   In my experience, most of my female professors and female academic staff did not see their marital status or sex as classified information to be hidden behind titles like "Ms." or gender-cryptic pronouns like "hu".  Most married women in my cultural, social, and academic circles adopted their husband's last name, with some of them expressing eagerness to change their name when they married.  In my current institution (an HBCU), I have directly heard some female staff expressing disdain for the title "Ms." to coworkers, students, administrators, and faculty (including myself), insisting on either "Miss" or "Mrs." LastName.  Some of these women were very vocal in their comtempt for the trappings of feminism and didn't want to be associated with it; one woman described the title "Ms." as the sound that bees make when they fly.  Some of the more old-time Southern women staff members still approved of being addressed as Miss or Mrs. FirstName, though this was relatively rare.  I am sorry that the original poster has had to deal with being addressed in a manner she felt to be inappropriate and disrespectful toward a faculty member such as herself; she should be called what she wishes and nothing else.  But in my time as a student and as a professor, my classmates and colleagues have consistently addressed doctorate-holding female professors as "Professor" or "Doctor, and never used a non-academic title.  I have never personally had or observed an interaction in which a female professor with a doctorate had to request that students, faculty, or staff address her with an academic title.  I have always addressed doctorate-holding female instructors as "Doctor" and non-doctorate-holding instructors (and female staff) as "Ms."; I've used the title "Professor" interchageably for both groups.
   
   I am curious about female professors' response to female students who fail to exhibit the proper level of formality to them, as opposed to male students.  I ask the female professors of this forum if they would take equal offense toward female and male students addressing them in a non-preferred manner, or would they take more offense to being improperly addressed by male students than by female students, even if only slightly.  Would female and male students be admonished in the same manner?  Or would male students be admonished more sternly?  [I've not read all the posts on this thread, so I don't know if this question has already been asked.  If it has, I apologize for the redundancy.]
 
   We are only professors, not gods.  We have neither the power nor the wherewithal to reverse over sixteen years of deeply acculturated behavioral patterns in our students in only one semester.  Nor should we have that power.  Once a professor has given a firm admonition about how he or she wants to be addressed, there is little else that professor can do.  After the student has finished out the semester, there is every possibility that student will revert back to former behaviors unless they are similarly admonished by several other professors throughout their time in college.  As academics, we tend to be somewhat more progressive and liberal (not always a good thing), and often forget that many of our students will not be as progressive as we are.  But if a professor makes the mistake of inadvertently lambasting and judging students representing an entire class of persons (southern people, poor people, rural people, people of strong religious faith, socially conservative people, people of certain ethnicities/nationalities, etc.) as being insufficiently liberal for his or her tastes, that professor might end up opening a can of worms that would have been best kept closed.

   Sometimes, we professors just need to get over ourselves.             

[pink_]

 
   
   I am curious about female professors' response to female students who fail to exhibit the proper level of formality to them, as opposed to male students.  I ask the female professors of this forum if they would take equal offense toward female and male students addressing them in a non-preferred manner, or would they take more offense to being improperly addressed by male students than by female students, even if only slightly.  Would female and male students be admonished in the same manner?  Or would male students be admonished more sternly?  [I've not read all the posts on this thread, so I don't know if this question has already been asked.  If it has, I apologize for the redundancy.]
 
   We are only professors, not gods.  We have neither the power nor the wherewithal to reverse over sixteen years of deeply acculturated behavioral patterns in our students in only one semester.  Nor should we have that power.  Once a professor has given a firm admonition about how he or she wants to be addressed, there is little else that professor can do.  After the student has finished out the semester, there is every possibility that student will revert back to former behaviors unless they are similarly admonished by several other professors throughout their time in college.  As academics, we tend to be somewhat more progressive and liberal (not always a good thing), and often forget that many of our students will not be as progressive as we are.  But if a professor makes the mistake of inadvertently lambasting and judging students representing an entire class of persons (southern people, poor people, rural people, people of strong religious faith, socially conservative people, people of certain ethnicities/nationalities, etc.) as being insufficiently liberal for his or her tastes, that professor might end up opening a can of worms that would have been best kept closed.

   Sometimes, we professors just need to get over ourselves.             

Setting aside the "we need to get over ourselves dig, I'll tell you that since my students are 99% female (in actuality), there is no difference between how I would address a student.  I don't admonish anyone since typically, the students think that they are being respectful, and there's no slight intended.  But that my students are almost all female makes it all the more important that they realize that not all women over 30 are married with kids.  Yes, that is the cultural norm where I live, and yes, almost of them also take their husbands' names, but not all of them do.  Either way, that doesn't mean that they should assume that every woman they meet has made those same choices.  And if all of this gets them to be more mindful about their own lives and the options that they all have, then all the better.

[toothpaste]

My N is very small--just the two students last week who called me Mrs. rather than anything else--but one was male and one was female.  Mrs. still drives me nuts, but I have learned the "teachable moment with a side of respect" lesson of this thread and gently explained as an aside why Mrs. is likely not appropriate in the university setting.

Madam Toothpaste

[drfreud]

<feeble attempt at humor>

Some of you may be underestimating the importance to menfolk in being able to distinguish between a Miss and a Mrs.  How else are we to know which female it is permissible to club over the head and drag back to our caves?

</feeble attempt at humor>

I see that the idea of using "Ma'am" as title was floated, and sunk, but may I suggest "Milady" as a marriage-neutral alternative?  And "Milord" for gents, in fairness, of course.

More practically, I tell my students that they can never go wrong with "Professor" when addressing faculty.  One could also gently point out the underlying assumptions of using "Mrs." to address a woman of uncertain marital status, as Mme. Toothpaste has just indicated she does.  After that, what Arpodah has said.  One can only do so much to control how one is addressed in the classroom or in social/non-academic settings.

[kedves]

In American English, we have a marriage-neutral term-of-address prefix.  It is Ms.  We have a marriage-neutral, gender-neutral, role-specific prefix.  It is Professor.

I don't allow my students to call me Miss, Mrs., and Firstname because I like it.  I do it because I am tired of trying to remind them of the appropriate alternative.  The polite, firm instructions and continual reminders to not work.

Most of the previous long post does not describe my experience.  My students use "Mrs." for female instructors, but not "Mr." for male instructors.  They are more liberal than I am.  "Admonished" and "reminded" are not synonyms.  However, I do think that first-name use does not necessarily diminish the respect or authority of the person addressed.  Nearly every supervisor our graduates will have will be called by his or her first name, and no one will forget who is in charge.

[polly_mer]

 As academics, we tend to be somewhat more progressive and liberal (not always a good thing), and often forget that many of our students will not be as progressive as we are. 

I'm hugely amused by this statement because I am both more liberal and less liberal than any students are likely to be (The libertarian streak makes me contrary that way).  I am also both more progressive and less progressive than my students because I have a strong sense of human beings having a wider range of "normal" behaviors than any local culture exhibits, but I also know that human beings are not infinitely malleable as to the behaviors that can be expected.

Of course, my training is primarily in engineering where a lot of these fiddly details don't matter from a technical standpoint and are tricky to deal with from a linguistics standpoint because of the large number of non-native English speakers, even in small, remote, American colleges.  In a classroom of Chinese students, I am often addressed as Dr. Mer but referred to as he.  It would be a waste of my time and breath to address the complexities of Ms./Mrs./Miss in that context.

From those perspectives, the battle for Ms. seems either incomplete (where is the push for gender neutrality because gender doesn't matter for social status?) or needlessly nitpicky (so one must somehow determine gender, but do so in an inoffensive way, unless the applicable title is something else entirely that students must somehow gather from other sources). 

In addition, the battle for Ms. is being made by people who are threatening other values held dear by many people.  In many places, a few women have been the backbone of the community for years through their public service and volunteer work.  No one in those communities see anything disrespectful about referring to Miss X, librarian for 20 years and Girl Scout leader for 10 years, or Mrs. Y, head nurse at the hospital for 10 years and lead singer in the church choir for 30 years.  The respect is there because of the work they have done.  Recent arrivals insisting that only Ms. is a proper title of respect for an adult woman have missed the whole point--respect is earned in the community through deeds-- and paint themselves as pushy outsiders who think they are better than the locals. 

In those circumstances, Ms. marks one as clearly having particular world views.  Most communities have strong women doing wonderful things, regardless of their marital status and regardless of whether they self-identify as feminists.  But the insistence on Ms. will yield less respect initially because of the baggage that comes with it.  Failing to take the local culture into account on that point means that one will fight an uphill battle.  That's fine if that's the hill you (generic) want to die on, but as Arpodah points out, you could likely make changes in hearts and minds faster toward a society that equally values all people if you were pulling with the strong women (and men) who are already established members of the community instead of wearing a big sign stating "Pushy outsider.  If life is made hard enough here, maybe I'll go away and the community can continue to run as it likes."