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Author Topic: PhD in Philosophy - Am I ready?  (Read 4572 times)
newbie
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« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2009, 03:22:07 PM »

Quote
I encounter this type of pessimism about the academic job market quite a lot on the net. But when I share this worry with professors, I'm told that 'if you're good, you don't need to worry' - giving me the impression that perhaps this is an inflated worry.

The job market in philosophy isn't as bad as professional sports drafts

I wouldn't be so sure. (I know, I cut this post to heck, but I wanted to emphasize the analogy even more strongly than betterslac).

I agree. I also wanted to note that even if the job market in philosophy isn't as bad as professional sports drafts, it is also good to note that both job markets require relocation, sometimes without many options. It is good to ponder how willing you are to relocate anywhere in the country for an academic job.

I also think it's relevant to point out that being "good" and thus "not having to worry" is more complicated than it sounds. First, being "good" requires a lot more than just being smart and working hard. If you get into a strong graduate program, then you will find that almost everyone is "good", intelligent, hard-working, etc. Even if you are in one of the top 5 programs in your field, and even if some of these students decide not to go into academia, there will likely be many more extremely strong candidates vying for jobs than there are positions available. See if you can find some job listings for your field from last year or pay attention this year to see the number of slots open. Do the math.

Luck also plays a huge role: how your projects turn out, who reviews your articles for publication, who is on the job market at the same time as you, what positions are actually available the years you are on the market, what area of research is most desired when you are on the market.

In other words, being "good" makes it more likely that you will find a job, but it's important to realize how complicated the process can be. You need to be willing to live anywhere if you want to be in academia and realize you may spend a decade or two before you feel really settled in a job (due to the length of graduate school and the length of the tenure clock).
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advil
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« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2009, 12:04:04 PM »

I encounter this type of pessimism about the academic job market quite a lot on the net. But when I share this worry with professors, I'm told that 'if you're good, you don't need to worry' - giving me the impression that perhaps this is an inflated worry.

You have to understand that "if you are good, you don't need to worry" is a moderately standard non-answer.  It is something you can say to any undergrad about the academic job market regardless of any opinions you might have about the market, or the student.  (And it might be outdated -- it isn't clear to me that this standard advice is actually true any more; good people probably do need to worry now, and the market is not getting better soon.)  How well one does on any segment of the academic job market depends highly on what programs they get into, what they do/happens to them during grad school, and a huge component of luck.  Your professors simply can't predict any of that at this point; odds are they don't even have as rounded a view of you as an admissions committee will have, though it may be more nuanced in certain respects. 

My impression (as an outsider in a neighboring field) is that the philosophy job market is absolutely brutal right now, and it is especially brutal if you are at a place whose PGR ranking is not high.  To get real opinions, you would be much better off talking to grad students currently on the market or coming up to it.  At the very least, if you don't get into an extremely highly PGR-ranked school (overall, and for your specialty), I simply wouldn't bother to go; of course, some may feel that this is an overly pessimistic view.  In general, you want to make sure you understand the (huge) role of PGR rankings in your field, and their potential impact on you; it is very different than rankings in most other fields.
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tt_wannabe
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« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2009, 12:45:21 PM »

To underscore what advil said, this is taken directly from the PGR website:

"There are, by almost everyone’s admission, too many PhD programs, perhaps especially  in the United States; students should think very carefully before enrolling in the programs that are not well-ranked overall, though some have, to be sure, particular niches of excellence, that are reflected in the specialty rankings later in this Report.  For those specialty niches, programs not well-ranked overall may be a good choice.  Be sure, in any event, to get a complete report on job placement from these programs before enrolling:  some have better records than other."

http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/overall.asp

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Counting *chimes* as citations.
t_r_b
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« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2009, 09:01:18 PM »

Others have addressed the issue of your advisors' misguided advice. I'll add only that I can't tell you how many times, on these fora and in other online and offline discussions, I have heard some variation on "my undergrad profs told me not to worry about the job market, and now I can't get a job, and neither can anyone else!" This statement is generally followed by a round condemnation of undergrad faculty everywhere who fail to give their students a realistic picture of the job market. When someone responds, "well, anyone with half a clue could have told you that the job market was awful and not likely to improve," they reply, "sure, but my advisor..."

You are at a crossroads that many many others have passed before you. You have to choose between hearing only what you want to hear and getting a more thorough picture of reality on which to make your decision. Many have opted for the former and came to regret it. Just keep that in mind, and don't come back here in eight years whining about how your advisor assured you that you'd find a job.

I am curious, though, why would you tell a college senior to forget about grad school?

My generic advice for traditionally-aged college seniors is not to forget about grad school entirely, but to forget about it temporarily. I would recommend a minimum of two years doing something completely non-academic before applying to grad programs.

Why? Because many traditionally-aged college seniors - particularly those with the interest and aptitude for graduate study - have remarkably little experience of non-academic life. They have never held a full-time job, except for temporary summer gigs. They have not developed an off-campus social life. They have not interacted regularly with people unlike themselves: people of different ages, educational backgrounds, talents, socioeconomic backgrounds. In sum, they are familiar with only a relatively small slice of human life and experience, and most of that slice involves the experience of being in school.

Now, there is absolutely nothing wrong with any of that. At 22 years old, a college senior has been an adult for a very short time and has not had time to become wise in the ways of the world. Moreover, that college senior has been busy getting a four-year degree, which is in itself a very worthwhile endeavor.

The question, though, is whether that college senior should invest the next 8-10 years of their life in pursuing a degree that will qualify them only for positions that are both poorly paid (relative to other professions that require 8-10 years of post-BA training) and prohibitively hard to get. Now, there are certainly some people who invest those years and end up glad they did: I am one such person. For some people, grad school is a reasonable choice. But I submit that it is hard to determine whether that is true for any given college senior until that college senior has spent a few years doing non-academic things and interacting with non-academic people. Because until you've done that, you won't really know what you are passing up by opting for an academic career.

That's the main reason for my generic advice, but there is another. In my experience, academics who have spent part of their lives as non-academics tend to make better academics than those who have never ventured outside the ivy-covered walls. For one thing, if you have spent a few years outside of academia and decided that your non-academic career options are definitely wrong for you, you will approach grad school with stronger motivation to succeed and a clearer sense of purpose. You may also find that your non-academic endeavors help you develop and more clearly articulate your research interests. You may even find yourself drawn to a specialization you hadn't before considered that suits you much better than your original plan. In grad school, I ended up specializing in a field of history completely unrelated to my undergraduate work: I had never taken a single class in it. I ended up there in large part because my post-college non-academic life got me interested.

For another thing, much of the work academics do involves working with non-academics: most notably undergraduates. Of course, we were all undergraduates once, but we were undergraduates with a real passion for our studies. The same is not true of the vast majority of the students we teach. Scholars who have never worked alongside anyone who does not share their love of their discipline often do less well at connecting to non-passionate students. Many end up muttering resentfully about how obtuse their students are and how they wish they could teach the honors seminar more often, or move to a school with higher admissions standards. Don't become one of those mutterers: they and their students would have been far better off if they had taken a few years away from school, figured out that they liked the thought of a six-figure income, and never gone to grad school at all.
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systeme_d_
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« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2009, 09:13:24 PM »

A brilliant, spot-on post by TRB.  Malcha HoFd it, with good reason.

To the OP: 
I am not in philosophy, but I am in a cognate field.  The philosophy market is even worse than my own. (I'm tenured, so this is not sour grapes talking.) Check the PGR, consider only to top programs in your subfield with superb placement records, and take a year or two off before you apply.   
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gennimom
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« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2009, 09:40:18 PM »

T_r_b, you are so right. When I graduated college, I'd had vague thoughts of going to grad school but no idea what I really planned to do with a graduate degree. After a year of working with horses (my main passion at the time) I realized I didn't really want to do that for a living. So that was when all those whispers that I should be a teacher finally made it through the wall in my mind.

While in grad school, I was asked if I would do a PhD, because my advisor apparently thought I had the aptitude, but at the time I had no idea what I would do with one. I'd discovered that college teaching positions weren't quite what I'd idealized them to be. After all, you had to do RESEARCH.

Fast forward 12 years after I graduated. I was back in a grad program, knowing what I wanted to do with the degree. I've since discovered that not only do I want to work in higher ed, helping hs teachers do their job in agricultural education, but that I want to do RESEARCH. Now my problem is, there have been a lot of job announcements this year considering the size of the field (the few unis that have my program often only have one professor in my field), but it looks like they're playing fruit basket turnover. Very few newbies are being allowed to enter the field while all the established profs just change institutions.

However, I have a current position that does allow me to satisfy my desire to do research. I've got an idea for a study that has a lot of people around me excited at the possibilities. The only problem is getting the subjects to participate. I've got visions of the subjects running in screaming panic, all because they think I'm out to get them. I really just want to help them and improve my field and its image (yes, I know, we've all heard that before), but somehow I've got to remind them I've been there where they are, and I only have their best interests at heart.

If you get excited about things like this, OP, then go for it. The search for the answer is the be all, end all, and the whole purpose behind academia. But I agree with T_r_b. Take some time off. Smell the roses. Get down there with the little people. Understand what drives them, and see how it can help you be a better professor. If that sounds like heaven, then the degree and the job hunt are for you.
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academic_cog
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« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2009, 02:23:15 AM »

My generic advice for traditionally-aged college seniors is not to forget about grad school entirely, but to forget about it temporarily. I would recommend a minimum of two years doing something completely non-academic before applying to grad programs.

This is good advice ---- most seniors graduate and bounce in and out of various low-level jobs before they find where they'll "stick" and get promoted up to something interesting. The up side to this is that you can travel and see the world and come back to hop back into an entry-level job without too much problem.

Once you're in a grad program living off pocket lint and top ramen, though, you're going to be on a clock and have to do tons of stuff before your funding and time to degree run out. It is really _hard_ to go travel for a while or do other cool post-college stuff without taking a leave or dropping one of the many balls you should be juggling. So even if you absolutely love love love philosophy and academia, you could benefit from taking a break and working some jobs, backpacking around, sleeping on some couches...it's way harder to do all that fun stuff when you are teaching two sections of Intro to Critical Thinking to disaffected undergrads while simultaneously freaking out about your next conference paper.

And one more thing about the job market: before you go for grad school, since it's philosophy you're after, go read the entire back archives of the Philosophy Job Market Blog: philosophyjobmarket.blogspot.com Even if you _do_ beat the odds and get a tenure track job, you're still going to have to go through this s***. And all those ups and downs and crushing defeats hurt way worse when they actually hit you than what you anticipate.

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jennyfields
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« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2009, 04:24:46 AM »

You could benefit from taking a break and working some jobs, backpacking around, sleeping on some couches...it's way harder to do all that fun stuff when you are teaching two sections of Intro to Critical Thinking to disaffected undergrads while simultaneously freaking out about your next conference paper.

I understand the recommendation to take industry jobs before going into graduate school.  There are many reasons this is a great idea.  However, I take issue with the assumptions that come with some of these recommendations.  Some people wouldn't have any more option to travel or "sleep on couches" than if they decided to continue on to graduate school.  Even the cheapest scenarios aren't viable if you can't afford private insurance during that time (or be accepted due to pre-existing conditions).  Well, that's unless you travel in countries where, if you break your arm, you aren't liable for thousands of dollars in medical bills.  I know a lot of people live without insurance, but it isn't right and it's down right dangerous in the US.  The only feasible types of youthful traveling I've discovered have been the military or short term public service. 

Also, for many new BAs, there's loans that go into repayment once you're out of school.  It seems that the price of undergrad often locks people into mandatory employment with limited options if you want to keep your credit clean. 

At least where I am, and even before the economic down turn, living wage full-time employment with any sort of benefits has always been difficult to get, so such positions aren't taken or broken casually.  Also, since we're talking about the humanities here, a liberal arts education doesn't always endow you with a plethora of marketable skills.  Not to say that grad school is in itself an alternative to entry-level jobs, but it appears that life is tough all over no matter what your choices.   

So, I am totally on board with the "try something outside of academia first," but not so much the assumption that there is this standard possibility for bohemian-style freedom resulting from opting for entry level employment instead.   

inb4 the economic realities of adjuncting       
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 04:26:06 AM by jennyfields » Logged
midwestgrad
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« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2009, 10:51:34 PM »

The economic "realities" of post-college life are often overstated, particularly when the person in question already knows he/she is going to return to graduate school.  There's nothing at all wrong with finding a couple of roommates, living on $500/month (easily managed if you have roommates and you're living in an undergraduate/grad student/working-class neighborhood), and taking a low-wage job for a couple of years. 

Many recent college grads have this strange belief that they must be doing important work, or work related to their degree, after college and before graduate school.  Nonsense.  Often times, boring, low-wage work, combined with the responsibility of paying your own rent for 2-3 years, helps build the maturity needed for grad school.  And it's a great way to avoid academic burnout.
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