next »

[lowerbound]

Gentle counselors -

Let me just lay back on the forum therapy couch and tell you what I'm thinking.....

My current position is that of postdoc at BigTime University (R1/VH). At the outset the position appeared very attractive, but has turned out to be a 'cheap skilled labor' hire by the PI.  Somehow, I missed the signs during the interview process.  It's likely I was too focused on the university's prestige.  My opinion on the position has been corroborated by the words of another postdoc that recently left mid-appointment, and the second-hand knowledge of at least one more unsatisfied postdoc in the past that left early.  As far as I can tell, there have only been five total postdocs under the PI, including myself.

I find myself giving serious consideration to bailing out half way through a one-year appointment.

The situation is complicated by the fact that I had trouble with my PhD advisor as well (R1/VH).  I left that program ABD because more and more projects were being piled onto my research, which would have pushed my graduation date by at least a couple of years.  Again, the problems were not isolated to me (so, at least for the purposes of this thread, you can assume it's not just that I am a problem child!)  Two years after leaving, with pressure from other faculty, my advisor agreed to let me write up the work I had completed prior to leaving.  I did this on my own time and successfully defended six months later.  This all left a very obvious time gap in my CV, which is one reason I was thrilled to land a seemingly great postdoc position. (I had not done any academic work in the intervening years.)

So why a VAP?

The research community in my specialty is small enough that I perceive a potential risk to my current position if I were to shop around for another postdoc position -- I do not want another gap in employment.  Waiting for the TT season would essentially keep me here for the remainder of my appointment.  Even if there were an off season TT opening, I think the red flag raised by my CV gap coupled with my leaving this postdoc early would never pass the scrutiny of a TT search committee (of course, this is also a concern for a VAP position).

A major concern of mine is references.  My letter writers are a huge asset, including my PhD advisor, and I worry about damaging that by leaving this position early after their strong support.  (Counter to every emotion I felt at the time, I worked very hard not to burn bridges when I left the PhD program.)

Having time for research is also a big concern.  Since I essentially have none now, I see such a move as sideways at worst in this respect.  Oddly enough, I envision a VAP position as giving me more control.  Silly?

What?  Our session time is up already?  Well doc, am I crazy?

[erzuliefreda]

Again, the problems were not isolated to me (so, at least for the purposes of this thread, you can assume it's not just that I am a problem child!) 

You must be new here.

[lowerbound]

Again, the problems were not isolated to me (so, at least for the purposes of this thread, you can assume it's not just that I am a problem child!) 

You must be new here.

Guilty.  Is that why I miss your point, is it an 'insider' thing?  Or am I acting like a bufoon and this is posted in the wrong place?

[runwithscissors]

At the outset the position appeared very attractive, but has turned out to be a 'cheap skilled labor' hire by the PI.

Hi, I'm sorry to hear of your position. I am in a similar boat in that I am halfway through a postdoc at a fairly prestigious uni and am looking to leave. I'm curious as to the cheap skilled labour aspect. Basically is the problem that you are being treated like a glorified research assistant?

I had a similar problem in that after finishing the PhD I assumed that I would be treated as an academic with the capability to bring in my own research interests and be granted a degree of independence. Not so. I think it's important to realise that PIs will always want a project finished on time and on budget and that that is their highest priority. You, as a postdoc, want independence, career development, scholarly respect and autonomy (all the things the PhD groomed you for). This will not happen as 'someone else's' postdoc. If you can stomach the idea that your priorities will always be at odds with the PIs (to some extent) and treat it as a grind to get published and earn your independence, then it makes the whole business easier. In short, I don't think you should give up the position; especially if it is for only a few more months.

[sciencephd]

This is really field dependent.  Both the definition and value of a VAP and postdoc in the sciences, for example, is different than one in other fields.  If you're in the sciences, I don't see why you wouldn't just switch to a different postdoc/lab.

[lowerbound]

 I'm curious as to the cheap skilled labour aspect. Basically is the problem that you are being treated like a glorified research assistant?

runwithscissors:

Essentially, yes.  The problem is deeper than having to do only the PI's research, it's that I'm doing very little actual research at all.  Mostly, I am providing support that would be done by someone with a BS degree and appropriate experience (computer programming).  A programmer's salary in academia would be roughly 150-200% of what I make, and they would likely not understand the underlying science.  Hence the attractiveness of getting postdocs to do this work.  Programming is a big part of the work done in my area, and I fully expect to do plenty of it throughout my career, but it is not research in and of itself.

I take your point about the PI's priorities, and that keeping this in mind is helpful -- I agree.  Once I figured out what was up, my stress level was actually reduced.  Unfortunately, I have a hard time seeing myself grinding out pubs while doing this work.  Maybe I do need to resolve myself to that.


sciencephd:

I am in the sciences. My concern with trying to move to a different lab is that I would need to explain why I am leaving early, on top of the gap in my PhD.  These would give me doubt if I were reviewing such an applicant.  So it could be that I end up with no new position AND put my current position at risk -- the community is relatively small and has a fully functional grapevine.  Does this seem reasonable or am I being a bit paranoid?


[edit: typo]

[sciencephd]

Surely the VAP would require as much explanation as a postdoc.  I take it that you are not intending to pursue a research career ?  Because that is what a VAP more or less implies.

[lowerbound]

I do expect to have to explain it anywhere.  But I don't expect the SC to be wired into the grapevine of my particular community and hence less risky to my current position.

Thanks for your take on the VAP path.  I do plan an academic research career.   My reasoning is that at least I will be adding something to my CV with teaching experience for the next year, rather than what I suspect will be a year at a nice Uni but with little to show for it.  Flawed?  Will the VAP path really put me off track a lot?

[figee]

(Disclaimer - not in science so it might be irrelevant)

Would you not be better off sticking this out, but working your butt off in the meantime getting as many publications out as possible based on your PhD?  Wouldn't that put you into a stronger position in terms of TT jobs later?  Although not doing any 'research' is a nightmare (been there, done that), at least it means that the intellectual energy you have can be directed towards things which will more directly benefit you.

[sciencephd]

I don't think VAP's in the sciences have access to research labs, access to the money to conduct their own research, or the time to do research, because a VAP is a full time teaching position. 

It could be that my impression is incorrect, as I have not seen such a position up close.

[gonehiking]

I don't think VAP's in the sciences have access to research labs, access to the money to conduct their own research, or the time to do research, because a VAP is a full time teaching position. 

It could be that my impression is incorrect, as I have not seen such a position up close.

There do seem to be VAP positions that are sort of a hybrid, at least in physics.  My department was trying to fill multiple positions a few years ago and we had a few applicants who were VAPs at research universities who had more like 2-2 (or perhaps 2-1) teaching loads and were doing significant research.  Plus, I don't remember them having enough grant activity to buy out the other half of a full teaching load or anything like that.  I don't know the exact details, but my more worldly chair said that while it isn't common, it's not particularly uncommon either.

For the OP, I would think a VAP position that really is more or less all teaching could scuttle the research-intensive TT possibilities that you want, but I may be more cynical than most.

[lowerbound]

Thank you all for the feedback, you are gentlehu and scholars; and you have collectively backed me away from the edge... for now.  Time spent lurking here gave me the expectation that posting would be useful.  You have not disapointed.

(Disclaimer - not in science so it might be irrelevant)

Would you not be better off sticking this out, but working your butt off in the meantime getting as many publications out as possible based on your PhD?  Wouldn't that put you into a stronger position in terms of TT jobs later?  Although not doing any 'research' is a nightmare (been there, done that), at least it means that the intellectual energy you have can be directed towards things which will more directly benefit you.

Provided I can get publications out, it's probably the best move.  Even though it's not research, the work here requires significant mental energy and I worry about having enough reserve to pump out pubs.  The senior postdoc here has a sum total of one publication after two years.  (Seriously, how did I miss that?)  I do have hope in the belief that once I finish feeling sorry for myself the extra effort should come more easily.

Of course, publishing on my own will likely offend the PI.  At the moment, that's both worrisome and a bit exciting.

Thanks again foralites.

--LB

[sciencephd]

One first author publication (published) after two years is not unreasonable in many fields, especially most fields of "biomedicine".  Remember there is a substantial lag time between first submission and publication, even when the paper comes out in a journal with a good turn around time.

[lowerbound]

One first author publication (published) after two years is not unreasonable in many fields, especially most fields of "biomedicine".  Remember there is a substantial lag time between first submission and publication, even when the paper comes out in a journal with a good turn around time.

No biological or other long-term study involved in the work, and turnaround was about 6 weeks.  Still, I see your point and value a voice of reason in my time of swaying emotions.  Thanks!

[runwithscissors]

publishing on my own will likely offend the PI

I'd take a look at the conditions of employment in your contract. If it's standard postdoc contract boilerplate, there is likely to be something in there about contributing to publications as part of your role. First of all, have you brought any of this up with the PI? A request to work on a publication portfolio is not in any way unreasonable and it shows your interest in the field. If the PI says no, then wave the contract under their noses and see if that gets things moving.