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[s_wood]

Hi, I'm a graduate student in the sciences at a large research university and a postdoc at my university who is a new TT hire at another research university has been openly discussing his plan not to hire any female graduate students into his research group during his first year.  His justification is that, although he thinks women scientists can be just as good as men, he feels he won't be able to push a female student as hard as he needs to push his first graduate students in order to get tenure.

Graduate students in the sciences are typically considered employees of the university, and are therefore protected against some forms of discrimination by the usual hiring laws.  Gender clearly is one of those protected classes, regardless of the justification.

I find this appalling, but as I do not know the guy personally, I'm not sure what I can/should do about this, if anything...  any suggestions?

[cgfunmathguy]

Don't worry about it. If he's dumb enough to say it to you, he'll say it to the wrong person soon enough. Then, he won't need to worry about getting tenure.

[daniel_von_flanagan]

He has not broken any laws until he has actually discriminated in hiring.  - DvF

[skinnymargarita]

Hi, I'm a graduate student in the sciences at a large research university and a postdoc at my university who is a new TT hire at another research university has been openly discussing his plan not to hire any female graduate students into his research group during his first year.  His justification is that, although he thinks women scientists can be just as good as men, he feels he won't be able to push a female student as hard as he needs to push his first graduate students in order to get tenure.

Graduate students in the sciences are typically considered employees of the university, and are therefore protected against some forms of discrimination by the usual hiring laws.  Gender clearly is one of those protected classes, regardless of the justification.

I find this appalling, but as I do not know the guy personally, I'm not sure what I can/should do about this, if anything...  any suggestions?

I feel your pain. I wanted to do my research on gender bias. By the end of the dissertation it totally was removed from the actual study. I understand that gender bias exists. I found the research and documented it.

As far as doing anything about it in your situation, I think you don't have any clout [sorry, not trying to be mean]. I guess the best I can suggest is that you go into this experience with your head held high. Keep your cool if comments are made and move out of the situation asap and get away from the hostile situation. [suck it up and move on asap] but know that you are in the right and we are on your side, and may the force be with you!

[scampster]

I don't see how there is anything you can do...

As DvF said...

He has not broken any laws until he has actually discriminated in hiring.  - DvF

Plus, even if he did discriminate (but was smart enough to keep his mouth shut from now on), at least in my science field you would never know - I routinely am the only female in research groups and if I wasn't in the group no one would say it is because my advisor discriminated against women...

I get frustrated when I hear things like that said because I presume this isn't some 70 year old with antiquated ideas - these are our peers who grew up in a more modern age. They won't be aging out of the system any time soon...

I like to take solace in what cgfunmathguy said:

Don't worry about it. If he's dumb enough to say it to you, he'll say it to the wrong person soon enough. Then, he won't need to worry about getting tenure.

It may or may not happen, but it is nice to think that it might. (As a side note, a recent male interviewee in my college managed to alienate the women on the search committee by not answering their questions unless one of the males on the SC asked it - needless to say, he did not get the job, so I like to think that eventually it comes back and bites someone in the ass).

[mozman]

Mind your own business.

mm

[prof_smartypants]

It's usually the responsibility of the wronged party to sue. If you actually know someone who was not hired for this position, I might consider telling her about what you heard. Otherwise, chalk it up to idiocy and as others said, hope he screws himself.

[onestep]

If the person was openly discussing this, he was probably testing to see if anyone would challenge his beliefs.  So, challenge his beliefs.   If you feel it is wrong, but don't speak up, then you are implicitly saying that his plans are OK.  If you hear him talking about it and challenged him with, "well, you know that's illegal, right?  As you're talking about this in public, you're now giving people just cause to sue you and they'll have lots of witnesses to your comments."  Think about how he'll be sweating his hiring decisions next year even if he realizes that his ideas were stupid.

That said, did you actually hear the person talk?  If not, it's just hearsay.

[scampster]

If the person was openly discussing this, he was probably testing to see if anyone would challenge his beliefs.  So, challenge his beliefs.   If you feel it is wrong, but don't speak up, then you are implicitly saying that his plans are OK.  If you hear him talking about it and challenged him with, "well, you know that's illegal, right?  As you're talking about this in public, you're now giving people just cause to sue you and they'll have lots of witnesses to your comments."  Think about how he'll be sweating his hiring decisions next year even if he realizes that his ideas were stupid.

For some reason I have encountered more backwards men my age at my current location that any other. When they spout off some inane sexist BS, I don't even challenge them on the illegality of it, but just on the principle. "So you think you can't push female grad students as hard? Well I had my first paper out before anyone else in my cohort." You'd be amazed at how people back down when they actually have to justify their beliefs to a member of the group they are denigrating.

[inthelab]

If he openly discussed it, other people must have heard it.
Multiple people complaining to EOCC office might have an effect.
But I don't think grad students are employees, they are students.  I list them separately from employees on grant applications.  They get no benefits.

[kamiakin]

1. Write down every sexist thing he says.

2. Create a blog titled "Dr. X, XX University, is a Sexist Idiot" and post them.

3. ??

4. Profit!

[jackofallchem]

The background: I know a professor who did this. Well, he tried to.  He had 6 or 7 female grad students in a row leave after 2 years "because they were getting married".  Now this is a problem because grad students spend the first 2 years taking classes and getting the hang of things.  They only begin to be really productive in the lab after that.  He had grants and papers that needed research and he was spending his time training people who never produced anything for him and in his mind, weren't really dedicated to the field.  He then vowed not to take any more female grad students.

The result:  The students weren't really leaving because they were getting married.  Because they were getting married, they saw a way out of his lab.  The male students were all trying to find ways to get married to women who would enable them to quit grad school to get out of his lab, too (they just weren't as successful).  The grad students in the department knew this and were more amused than horrified by his stated goal of only having male grad students.  The professor soon found out that since about 50% of grad students are female, eliminating them as potential researchers is not a good way of keeping a viable research group going.

It would probably be difficult to prove that a professor was specifically excluding female students from their group right away (the numbers are too small).  Even if they have said it, it would be difficult to prove it well enough to have them disciplined.  It is not, however, hard to convince the grad students of that fact and cripple this professor's group.

[daniel_von_flanagan]

If he openly discussed it, other people must have heard it.
Multiple people complaining to EOCC office might have an effect.

Only if they can make a case that he is creating a hostile workplace...and even then, since the 'offender' is still a postdoc and not the supervisor, it is the supervisor that is most likely to get into trouble (and the whole research group might have to sit through some kind of HR seminar on workplace behavior).

Saying that you intend to discriminate at some future date is a speech act that does not in and of itself violate any regulations (nor should it). - DvF

[pocksuppet]

Hi, I'm a graduate student in the sciences at a large research university and a postdoc at my university who is a new TT hire at another research university has been openly discussing his plan not to hire any female graduate students into his research group during his first year.  His justification is that, although he thinks women scientists can be just as good as men, he feels he won't be able to push a female student as hard as he needs to push his first graduate students in order to get tenure.

Graduate students in the sciences are typically considered employees of the university [Pocky's note: Only if they're on a stipend, which generally doesn't happen until after they're admitted to the program!], and are therefore protected against some forms of discrimination by the usual hiring laws.  Gender clearly is one of those protected classes, regardless of the justification.

I find this appalling, but as I do not know the guy personally, I'm not sure what I can/should do about this, if anything...  any suggestions?

You don't know this guy personally.

So you've heard a rumor that somebody who will be starting a job at another institution has been talking about being a discriminatory a**hole in a way that may or may not be illegal?

I'm not defending the a**hole, but aren't there any more immediate injustices around you toward which you could direct your intentions?

[dellaroux]

Is his last name Summers?